Fair is Fair loot (another thread)

[crazy7381]

So been running a few raids with some drops cant remember the such. The thing thats sticks out in my mind is what im told when asked if its up for roll.

ie Ill sell it to you in chest.

Okay so this makes me wonder your loot is your loot right it makes me want to adapt a concept of the same process that makes it a fair chance if I get a drop that I'm not going to use

Roll d100 1-50 I put it up for roll 51-100 Ill sell it to an individual for a predetermined price depending on how rare of a drop it is.

I know Ill get flack for this but having been burned by the vendor monkeys has left me wondering is this me doing loot all wrong.

If your loot is truly your loot is this wrong or unethical in a ddo standpoint...

opinions please.

Elitist please abstain from leaving opinions

[Sirea]

This is my opinion on loot threads:

[Hikup]

The way I see it is if it's in the chest, and your name is on it it's yours to do with as you wish... I don't know what any/everyone has planned for their character. With that in mind, it's my squelch list (and friend list with a comment) to do with as I wish.

[TimethiefXVI]

This is my opinion on loot threads:

^ likes this

[crazy7381]

This is my opinion on loot threads:

but they spawn so much feedback from opposing views its like the elections with out our nation being screwed =-0
gotta do something to revive orien your as dead as an lfm for thernal

[yodino]

The way I do it is if I don't need a piece of loot, I let the classes which I think will benefit from it more roll on the item. Doesn't matter if some people think it's not fair, but I'm willing to hear you out if you can justify rolling on it. After seeing dumb people roll on loot (Paladin who's obviously THF Melee, rolling on Lorrik's necklace when the real healers needed it? Said she needed it for the +6 wis bonus >.<) that's how I usually allocate the loot I get. If it drops for another person, that's their business what to do with. If they offer to sell it and I need it, I will pay for it of course.

[kernal42]

So been running a few raids with some drops cant remember the such. The thing thats sticks out in my mind is what im told when asked if its up for roll.

ie Ill sell it to you in chest.

Okay so this makes me wonder your loot is your loot right it makes me want to adapt a concept of the same process that makes it a fair chance if I get a drop that I'm not going to use

Roll d100 1-50 I put it up for roll 51-100 Ill sell it to an individual for a predetermined price depending on how rare of a drop it is.

I know Ill get flack for this but having been burned by the vendor monkeys has left me wondering is this me doing loot all wrong.

If your loot is truly your loot is this wrong or unethical in a ddo standpoint...

opinions please.

Elitist please abstain from leaving opinions

The universal pug etiquette on Orien is that if you don't want it/can't use it, put it up for a roll. After all - what goes around comes around. Different servers seem to treat loot differently, and so do guilds.

That said, your loot has your name on it, and nobody can tell you what to do with it. "Fairness" and "ethicalness" aren't really relevant; fairness has already stated that every character has the same drop rate for the same loot. If you want to sell it in chest, then do that; it's your right. Many people (myself included) won't pay for loot in this way, and many people (myself included) would stop grouping with you knowing this is what you choose to do; that's their right.

What I don't understand is the point of rolling to see if you give it away or sell it - you obviously want to sell it, so do that. Introducing a chance that you give it away really doesn't change anything, except reveal your underlying belief that selling the loot isn't the right thing to be doing.

Cheers,
Kernal

[yodino]

The universal pug etiquette on Orien is that if you don't want it/can't use it, put it up for a roll. After all - what goes around comes around. Different servers seem to treat loot differently, and so do guilds.

That said, your loot has your name on it, and nobody can tell you what to do with it. "Fairness" and "ethicalness" are really relevant; fairness has already stated that every character has the same drop rate for the same loot. If you want to sell it in chest, then do that; it's your right. Many people (myself included) won't pay for loot in this way, and many people (myself included) would stop grouping with you knowing this is what you choose to do; that's their right.

What I don't understand is the point of rolling to see if you give it away or sell it - you obviously want to sell it, so do that. Introducing a chance that you give it away really doesn't change anything, except reveal your underlying belief that selling the loot isn't the right thing to be doing.

Cheers,
Kernal

I agree with that. IF I had to buy my loot from you, and an item drops that you wanted... yeah, you bet I'm gonna squeeze every last plat from you. I wouldn't stop grouping with you, but then I'd also put a little note beside your name making sure to bankrupt you every single chance I got. :P

[unscythe]

Some of that raid loot etiquette on Orien was started by those "elitists" .... actually idk... those elitists might have come after the front runners, but its probably a mix of both.

For the most part raid leaders will state how the loot will go at the beginning. But it has been a long time since that ettiquete was started.

The putting up of raid loot for the class that could use it the most was done because of the start of a new server.
New server means few good items, and very little to trade. So trying to sell raid loot seemed silly, and raids would go more smoothly if people had better gear. So the rolling on named loot was due to those reasons.

Maybe someday if this server had a better pugging poulation, like other servers, would selling or doing whatever you want with your loot be ok. But this server has split into many factions or cliques, so the pugging population will have to agree on some form of loot.

Since many people on the server have been introduced to general Orien etiquette, good luck with parties.

[Crazyfruit]

Some of that raid loot etiquette on Orien was started by those "elitists" .... actually idk... those elitists might have come after the front runners, but its probably a mix of both.

The way we do things was agreed on & passed along by everyone who raided here the first few months

Elitists included. Many of those people were a lot mellower back then.

There was a lil resistance at first, but there simply wasn't enough high levels on Orien to be greedy. I miss the days when everyone knew each other.

It's always fun to hear what Orien friends think after raiding elsewhere :d

[psymun]

Within my guild, we have loot rules... Everyone in the guild has agreed to the same way of doing things.

For PUGs that raid with us, if you loot it, either keep it or put it up for roll.

If you want to pass it to another person in the party without roll, or if you want to sell it, you will be flagged as such... And next time you are in a group with us, you will be exploited in the same way. Like someone else said, what goes around comes around...

If you think it's fair to do it a certain way... by all means do it. But you better believe, if you do it, everyone on the server will start taking notice, so make sure you abide by the golden rule...

May sound cliche, but plain and simple "Do to others what you want done to you."

[unscythe]

The way we do things was agreed on & passed along by everyone who raided here the first few months

Elitists included. Many of those people were a lot mellower back then.

There was a lil resistance at first, but there simply wasn't enough high levels on Orien to be greedy. I miss the days when everyone knew each other.

It's always fun to hear what Orien friends think after raiding elsewhere :d

I did a few Reaver's fates on Cannith before Orien was created, can't remember how loot rules were for the pugging.

But, I am open to whatever the rules are, as long as they seem fair to me anyways. If not then I can always drop.

[Freeman]

That dead horse picture has been used too much. Let's try something else: Dilbert's take on the subject.

[AyumiAmakusa]

If it drops under your name, do whatever you want with it. Vendor it, leave it in the chest to rot, pick it up then destroy it, whatever.

But you'll still get funny responses from people who don't agree with what you're doing.

[Crann]

To the OP...

It is your loot to do with as you please, but if you expect to become a part of the "Raiding Community," expect to deal with negative consequences for your actions. The whole idea of putting items up for roll is to get the rest of the community better geared for subsequent raids.

It wouldn't bother me so much if you decided to pass loot to a friend or guildy or another whom you thought needed the item, but offering to sell it seems kind of cheap to me. I have had a couple people do that, and to each their own. I don't join their groups, and they get declined from mine.

One thing I've noticed a great deal of lately here is LFM's where the leader is calling a certain piece of loot beforehand, mostly in quests. It is their group, they can do what they want, but I usually end up running the quest 2 or 3 times before theirs fills...and generally its for things I'd end up passing to them anyway. Not sure that posting an LFM like that is going to get you that item any quicker.

Another thing I have noticed, is that some expect you to put things that you pull up for roll, even if you want to keep them. It is a small percentage, but this seems very unique to Orien. I had someone get upset because I did not put my Regalia up for roll that I pulled on my Sorc...BTW he wasn't on a caster...he wanted to roll to get it for his alt. Not sure if I made his list, but would be happy if I did to miss out on any further drama.

OP, you will get a feel for how this community deals with loot dispersal. You don't have to march to the same drummer, but don't be surprised if no one invites you to their parade.

[Vanshilar]

So been running a few raids with some drops cant remember the such. The thing thats sticks out in my mind is what im told when asked if its up for roll.

ie Ill sell it to you in chest.

Okay so this makes me wonder your loot is your loot right it makes me want to adapt a concept of the same process that makes it a fair chance if I get a drop that I'm not going to use

Roll d100 1-50 I put it up for roll 51-100 Ill sell it to an individual for a predetermined price depending on how rare of a drop it is.

I know Ill get flack for this but having been burned by the vendor monkeys has left me wondering is this me doing loot all wrong.

If your loot is truly your loot is this wrong or unethical in a ddo standpoint...

opinions please.

Elitist please abstain from leaving opinions

As I've posted somewhere along the line, you're free to do whatever you want with your loot. However, others are free to decide whether or not they'll be willing to group with you in the future.

There's no implied threat or anything -- it's simply natural social behavior. If others feel that you're not willing to share the stuff that's not useful to you, then they won't feel like sharing with you the stuff that's not useful to them, either. This is the "***-for-tat" strategy (I'll be curious to see if that's censored out) in game theory (which is not the study of games per se, but the study of how people, which are assumed to be intelligent, rational agents, will behave in certain situations under specified conditions and benefits/payoffs). In many cases this turns out to be the optimal strategy, and it shouldn't be a surprise that people will largely follow it.

So if you get burned, just put their name down and keep it in mind the next time you join a group with them (or let the leader know that you won't join the group unless person X leaves due to previous interactions, etc.). After all, the flip side of the above is that their loot is their loot, but it means you're free to change your behavior based on what you've seen them do with their loot. Others are likely doing the same.

I think generally in the open-to-PUG raids that I've been in, if you pull it and you can use it best, then you're free to take it. Otherwise, it goes to whoever can use it best and wins the roll, guildie or non-guildie. "Can use it best" is sort of a nebulous term, basically it's whatever builds can benefit the most from it. For example, a +3 str tome would likely go to a fighter/barbarian/paladin etc. even though a bard can benefit from it as well. After that, it goes to open roll. Occasionally there'll be an exception made for those that have been looking for the item forever (and have over 20 completions to show for it), but those tend to be rare, and are usually stated at the beginning of the raid. So the priority list is something like:

1. You (if your build can use it best)
(1a. Someone who's been looking for the item forever, occasionally)
2. Open roll among those builds that can use the item the best
3. Open roll among everyone

Getting the item for an alt or for a TR is generally not an acceptable reason, unless no one particularly wanted the item. Pulling a bound item "by mistake" or claiming "the confirm window never popped up" is generally not an acceptable excuse either and will generally mean that people won't want to group with you in the future. Also, depending on the situation, occasionally the leader may simply assign it to someone, if it's fairly clear who would benefit from the item the best.

A note: This is for open-to-PUG raids only, guild-only raids and guild + known people raids tend to go by a different system (loot council).

Some of that raid loot etiquette on Orien was started by those "elitists" .... actually idk... those elitists might have come after the front runners, but its probably a mix of both.

For the most part raid leaders will state how the loot will go at the beginning. But it has been a long time since that ettiquete was started.

The putting up of raid loot for the class that could use it the most was done because of the start of a new server.
New server means few good items, and very little to trade. So trying to sell raid loot seemed silly, and raids would go more smoothly if people had better gear. So the rolling on named loot was due to those reasons.

Maybe someday if this server had a better pugging poulation, like other servers, would selling or doing whatever you want with your loot be ok. But this server has split into many factions or cliques, so the pugging population will have to agree on some form of loot.

Since many people on the server have been introduced to general Orien etiquette, good luck with parties.

I thought it was interesting to read that on some other servers, some guilds adopt the "our loot is our loot, but we also get to roll on your loot" approach. Apparently the PUG should feel so blessed at being accepted into a guild's raid that they shouldn't expect to get any loot from it (beyond what they pull themselves), even though the fact that the guild decided to wait for a PUG to show up rather than shortmanning the raid shows that the PUG contributed to the raid as well. This approach only works if there are enough PUGs that are willing to take the abuse, and so the general stated reason is "hey we run with guildies a lot, so why shouldn't we give our loot to the people we play with rather than strangers that we may never seen again?" without regards to "hey this stranger helped us complete this raid, without whom we may not have been able to complete it in the first place, so maybe he should get some consideration" or from the vantage point of the PUG "hey why would I want to join a guild's raids if they're not gonna pass any loot to me?" And we're the elitists?

[samthedagger]

Either put it up for a roll, sell it to the highest bidder, or loot it yourself. Those are your options, and I do mean they are your options.

[EatSmart]

The "understood" convention for orien pugging is: (in priority order)

1 - If you need it for your character, take it.
2 - If it's an item mainly designed for certain classes let them roll for it
3 - If you can make use of it (such as for a clicky swap in) take it
4 - Put it up for general roll for all toons including use on alts/future TRs

If you're not going to do that, people like to know in advance. Its also polite to let people know ahead of starting if you're intending to pull a specific item that most people would not normally associate with your class/build.

Your loot is your loot, ultimately. At the same time, people like to have the option to not run with you if they disapprove of what you intend to do differently. Saying nothing at the start is agreeing to the social convention, which means doing something unusual at the end is a breach of trust.

[BossOfEarth]

I know Ill get flack for this but having been burned by the vendor monkeys has left me wondering is this me doing loot all wrong.

If your loot is truly your loot is this wrong or unethical in a ddo standpoint...

Here's the deal. Orien's raiders have it good. When I raid on Orien, I know I always have a shot at rolling for essential loot and all I have to give up is the junk I don't need anyway. This is the ideal solution.

Selling things out of the chest is foolish because it's a fire sale -- the seller is at a huge disadvantage. If the person buying from you gives you a low offer, what are you gonna do? Sell it to the Vendor for 80 plat?

So that's the first point. There's huge economic incentive to do Orien style loot sharing, simply because it's more efficient to share loot.

But there are also social incentives -- people who are cool have more friends to play with, so there's less time spent waiting for a group to form. You get that right? Sometimes people invite me because they remember that I'm cool, and sometimes people invite me because they know I'm friends with clerics. And I'm friends with Clerics largely because I'm generous with my Cleric loot!

Honestly, platnum isn't that great in the end game. Named loot, Friends, Raids and playtime are where it's at.

[Eladiun]

The way I see it is if it's in the chest, and your name is on it it's yours to do with as you wish... I don't know what any/everyone has planned for their character. With that in mind, it's my squelch list (and friend list with a comment) to do with as I wish.

Agreed, you sell raid chest loot you will never get an invite to a party I am running and if i put something for roll in a party you happen to be in your rolls will be ignored.

So, OP, sure sell that raid loot but understand that it's a taboo and a lot of players will remember and treat you accordingly. Same goes for rolling just to pass to a friend...

My personal loot rules are simple...

1) Me
2) My girlfriend
3) Roll: Classes that can use it now
4) Roll: Secondary Classes and Future TR's