Major Nerf to DoS Coming

[TechNoFear]

@spyderwolf
Just because I use the 'average' player / level of gear / guild level when discussing the game mechanics, does not mean I build my characters to that way.

I just think when discussing the game mechanics you should consider a range of builds, including the average build (not just top of the range like yours).

Don't you think it is selfish to say that because your 36 pt, dripping with Epic, +4 tomes, raid loot build is working, ALL DoS builds are fine?

Before you got the +4 tomes, Icy, Chattering Ring, GS weapon, Epic stat items, ToD set and 2 TRs, could your pal/monk "hate tank while twf and take little to no incoming damage? "

why would you ever use a tower shield and shield block when your can hate tank while twf and take little to no incoming damage?

Your build can because it has the best gear possible, what about new players?

Shouldn't they be able to make useful DoS paladins without having at least;
2 x +4 tomes,
2 x +3 exc stat items,
ToD set,
2 x +7 epic stat items,
guild buffs,
Yog pots,
2 x TR,
multiple rare loot items
and a Monk splash?

You said you got 89 AC 'self buffed' but then post a breakdown including guild buffs and Ranger Barkskin (not what is usually considered 'self buffed').

[I am sorry but I find your condescending tone annoying, similar to billionaire bankers saying the economy is fine.]

[Junts]

Btw, spyder, as someone who does only get hit on a 3 threat-tanking elite TOD, there's still something to be said for blocking, becuaes it does reduce incoming damage even further. Both Horoth and Suulomades have 19-20 crit ranges (they have ic: natural weapon), and the difference in incoming damage for people who block and don't is noticable, both as a tank and as a healer. I will at times stop and block if something very busy or wrong ish appening in the Suulo area to reduce the needed healing on myself, and it makes a difference. There's a benefit to intimitanking, as well as a benefit to threat tanking. I clearly prefer the latter, as that's how I built my character, but I would welcome it being easier to be an effective intimidate paladin, even if it just meant 70s intimidate and not the feat-spending, fighter-style Lailat lock. If we got half the intimidate stalwart defenders did (1 pt per tier instead of 2), I could nofail intim Horoth if I wanted as well. I'd still threat tank, but there are a variety of benefits to having access to the other method, and situations in which the other method is useful are not limited to Lailat.

There are also more advantages to building for threat, even though its much harder (you have to get 5 more armor class without blocking, for example), primarily that it's much easier to support having a dps mode, whether its your TWF, or my silver sword of shadows. Threat's also more reliable when its allowed to work, as it persists through lag, doesn't lead to the boss randomly whacking the party 2-3 times when intimidate doesn't fix properly, and, outside of the harder time maintaining equivalent ac, it's actually less buff dependent in a lot of ways: if something goes wrong, you can get back to the task at hand quicker (though regaining aggro may take a little longer, the difference isn't that large vs needing bardsong and etc, at least with righteousness and a sos in your hand).

Tanking has a lot of stigma on DDO because, once content is not challenging, it isn't welcome unless it's as fast or faster than simply brute forcing the quest. A threat tank that has to be waited for for even 10s engenders complaints. Many players view any kind of ramp-up or any requirement that other players hold back slightly as unacceptable. Personally, I feel like the developers ought to just bow to that reality and support the tanking with threat modifiers that permit them to do just that. However, pretty much every other MMO that's ever existed is able to get their playerbase to handle that kind of play, and in fact it's often one of the few responsibilities for dps players (along with 'dont stand in the fire, twit'). However, as long as its as easy (just some resources) to either not tank or to ignore the consequences of being irresponsible (the extra 3 mass cures that come from horoth whacking the party twice because someone pulled aggro), people will continue to treat the entire concept with contempt.

As to the poster above me, I may in fact be even -more- tricked out than Spyderwolf's build, and I'd agree its unfortunate that characters need to be on that level to be able to barely do this job. On the other hand, we're barely doing this job in the very hardest circumstance out there (elite tower), and in some ways it would simply be better if other roles and classes were more demanding in such a way that only the best dps players and the best healers and the best casters could thrive in those same situations. On the other hand, I think DDO is getting away from anything being so gear and grind-dependent as to have content that such a small percentage of players would be able to succeed at. Epic has been made easier repeatedly and my guess is that it will be again, because it's simply too hard for people without a lot of time spent on the game for prior knowledge to do it smoothly, easily and without significant grief or resource use. Even now there are groups of players who routinely do epic quests in more time it takes me to solo them and feel great about doing so without any resource loss, and in fact they're far more successful than most players in their guilds and on their servers. The dividing line between those players and me isn't even about play skill: its simply about knowledge and repetition and equipment quality.

[spyderwolf]

@spyderwolf
Just because I use the 'average' player / level of gear / guild level when discussing the game mechanics, does not mean I build my characters to that way.

I just think when discussing the game mechanics you should consider a range of builds, including the average build (not just top of the range like yours).

Don't you think it is selfish to say that because your 36 pt, dripping with Epic, +4 tomes, raid loot build is working, ALL DoS builds are fine?

Before you got the +4 tomes, Icy, Chattering Ring, GS weapon, Epic stat items, ToD set and 2 TRs, could your pal/monk "hate tank while twf and take little to no incoming damage? "



Your build can because it has the best gear possible, what about new players?

Shouldn't they be able to make useful DoS paladins without having at least;
2 x +4 tomes,
2 x +3 exc stat items,
ToD set,
2 x +7 epic stat items,
guild buffs,
Yog pots,
2 x TR,
multiple rare loot items
and a Monk splash?

You said you got 89 AC 'self buffed' but then post a breakdown including guild buffs and Ranger Barkskin (not what is usually considered 'self buffed').

[I am sorry but I find your condescending tone annoying, similar to billionaire bankers saying the economy is fine.]

actually i will say my build without +3 tomes and without hte epic gear works fine for tankign anyhting on hard or normal. i say this becuase there are multiple peopel runnign aroudn with my exact build without my loot and tomes ( of whic hi have 0 +4 tomes btw) and they tank jsut fine on normal and hard vods and tods.

and yes +5 barksin is self buff becuase i went and tr'd to ranger and then back to pally for it.

and about ship buffs. do you have some impediment stopping you form taking 5 secs to go get the buffs?

[spyderwolf]

Btw, spyder, as someone who does only get hit on a 3 threat-tanking elite TOD, there's still something to be said for blocking, becuaes it does reduce incoming damage even further. Both Horoth and Suulomades have 19-20 crit ranges (they have ic: natural weapon), and the difference in incoming damage for people who block and don't is noticable, both as a tank and as a healer. I will at times stop and block if something very busy or wrong ish appening in the Suulo area to reduce the needed healing on myself, and it makes a difference. There's a benefit to intimitanking, as well as a benefit to threat tanking. I clearly prefer the latter, as that's how I built my character, but I would welcome it being easier to be an effective intimidate paladin, even if it just meant 70s intimidate and not the feat-spending, fighter-style Lailat lock. If we got half the intimidate stalwart defenders did (1 pt per tier instead of 2), I could nofail intim Horoth if I wanted as well. I'd still threat tank, but there are a variety of benefits to having access to the other method, and situations in which the other method is useful are not limited to Lailat.

There are also more advantages to building for threat, even though its much harder (you have to get 5 more armor class without blocking, for example), primarily that it's much easier to support having a dps mode, whether its your TWF, or my silver sword of shadows. Threat's also more reliable when its allowed to work, as it persists through lag, doesn't lead to the boss randomly whacking the party 2-3 times when intimidate doesn't fix properly, and, outside of the harder time maintaining equivalent ac, it's actually less buff dependent in a lot of ways: if something goes wrong, you can get back to the task at hand quicker (though regaining aggro may take a little longer, the difference isn't that large vs needing bardsong and etc, at least with righteousness and a sos in your hand).

Tanking has a lot of stigma on DDO because, once content is not challenging, it isn't welcome unless it's as fast or faster than simply brute forcing the quest. A threat tank that has to be waited for for even 10s engenders complaints. Many players view any kind of ramp-up or any requirement that other players hold back slightly as unacceptable. Personally, I feel like the developers ought to just bow to that reality and support the tanking with threat modifiers that permit them to do just that. However, pretty much every other MMO that's ever existed is able to get their playerbase to handle that kind of play, and in fact it's often one of the few responsibilities for dps players (along with 'dont stand in the fire, twit'). However, as long as its as easy (just some resources) to either not tank or to ignore the consequences of being irresponsible (the extra 3 mass cures that come from horoth whacking the party twice because someone pulled aggro), people will continue to treat the entire concept with contempt.

As to the poster above me, I may in fact be even -more- tricked out than Spyderwolf's build, and I'd agree its unfortunate that characters need to be on that level to be able to barely do this job. On the other hand, we're barely doing this job in the very hardest circumstance out there (elite tower), and in some ways it would simply be better if other roles and classes were more demanding in such a way that only the best dps players and the best healers and the best casters could thrive in those same situations. On the other hand, I think DDO is getting away from anything being so gear and grind-dependent as to have content that such a small percentage of players would be able to succeed at. Epic has been made easier repeatedly and my guess is that it will be again, because it's simply too hard for people without a lot of time spent on the game for prior knowledge to do it smoothly, easily and without significant grief or resource use. Even now there are groups of players who routinely do epic quests in more time it takes me to solo them and feel great about doing so without any resource loss, and in fact they're far more successful than most players in their guilds and on their servers. The dividing line between those players and me isn't even about play skill: its simply about knowledge and repetition and equipment quality.

i agree with most of what ya say. all of my comments are mainly to the point that:
yes you can hate tank with average gear and power attack on with no shield on.. jsut because you cant do it on eltie without the best gear doesnt mean its broken. its fairly easy to have a toon with enough ac to tank vod and tod on normal and hard without super grinding. ( and this comment isnt directed at you, jsut in general to all the poeple who cant seem to realize that building an ac tank isnt qutie as hard as the majority of people make it out to be)

[spyderwolf]

Before you got the +4 tomes, Icy, Chattering Ring, GS weapon, Epic stat items, ToD set and 2 TRs, could your pal/monk "hate tank while twf and take little to no incoming damage? "

yes. he always had the ac to tank

[Quikster]

@spyderwolf
Just because I use the 'average' player / level of gear / guild level when discussing the game mechanics, does not mean I build my characters to that way.

I just think when discussing the game mechanics you should consider a range of builds, including the average build (not just top of the range like yours).

Don't you think it is selfish to say that because your 36 pt, dripping with Epic, +4 tomes, raid loot build is working, ALL DoS builds are fine?

Before you got the +4 tomes, Icy, Chattering Ring, GS weapon, Epic stat items, ToD set and 2 TRs, could your pal/monk "hate tank while twf and take little to no incoming damage? "



Your build can because it has the best gear possible, what about new players?

Shouldn't they be able to make useful DoS paladins without having at least;
2 x +4 tomes,
2 x +3 exc stat items,
ToD set,
2 x +7 epic stat items,
guild buffs,
Yog pots,
2 x TR,
multiple rare loot items
and a Monk splash?

You said you got 89 AC 'self buffed' but then post a breakdown including guild buffs and Ranger Barkskin (not what is usually considered 'self buffed').

[I am sorry but I find your condescending tone annoying, similar to billionaire bankers saying the economy is fine.]

Why should a new player be able to step off the ship and hate tank the highest non epic raid on elite without taking a bunch of damage?


The monk splash is fair game for anyone, as is the tr, as are the yugo pots, as are the +3 exceptional stats, as are the tod sets.

So you think spyderwolf just fell into this stuff? He did the grind, just like the new player would have to do. Just because he did it before they did, doesnt mean we should start changing game mechanics so the new player can feel like hes good.

[sephiroth1084]

Why should a new player be able to step off the ship and hate tank the highest non epic raid on elite without taking a bunch of damage?


The monk splash is fair game for anyone, as is the tr, as are the yugo pots, as are the +3 exceptional stats, as are the tod sets.

So you think spyderwolf just fell into this stuff? He did the grind, just like the new player would have to do. Just because he did it before they did, doesnt mean we should start changing game mechanics so the new player can feel like hes good.

Yes, but the problem is that even tanking on normal is beyond many characters.

10 base
+15 armor (DT FP)
+1 ritual
+3 Dex
+5 prot
+6 aura
+2 dodge (bracers/cloak)
+1 dodge (feat)
+4 bard
+5 bark
+2 recitation
+1 Haste
+4 stance
_____
59 in DPS mode (insufficient for tanking any raid after Reaver)
+9 tower
+1 ritual
___
69 in semi-AC mode (sufficient for VoD and ToD on normal)
+5 CE
___
74 in full-AC mode (sufficient for VoD and ToD on hard, but DPS is so low that unlikely to maintain aggro)

What DPS melee would be just barely passable in their role after spending that many AP, item slots and feats on doing their job? Part of the problem is that there is relatively little middle ground for AC, and very little for AC threat-tanking vs. basically every other role in every other quest, where having half of the equipment, but the right feats, stats and enhancements will allow you to accomplish your task successfully and often without issue.

The difference between a melee with the Frenzied Berserker set (+2 damage/swing) and one without is much less than that between a tank with the DoS/Stalwart set (+2 AC) and one without.

My barbarian has successfully main tanked raids on epic while being woefully under geared (NO Shroud items, almost no raid items, no epic gear...), while my double-TR'ed tome-laden, Christmas Tree of named/raid loot tank was struggling to main tank ToD on Hard at level 19 because he was missing 6 points of AC that came at lvl 20 (tier III DoS for +1 max Dex, +1 from stance, +2 from ToD set, and +2 max Dex from Epic Vambraces).

That right there tells the whole story. Something needs to be done about the way AC (and the AC/hate combination) function in the latter half of DDO. One solution may be consolidating AC bonuses, by offering alternative sources for everything (someone besides bards with an AC song-effect, someone besides paladins with an AC aura effect, duplicates of stuff like +2 Dodge, +4 Dodge, +4 Insight, +3 Dodge, etc...).

[spyderwolf]

Yes, but the problem is that even tanking on normal is beyond many characters.

10 base
+15 armor (DT FP)
+1 ritual
+3 Dex
+5 prot
+6 aura
+2 dodge (bracers/cloak)
+1 dodge (feat)
+4 bard
+5 bark
+2 recitation
+1 Haste
+4 stance
_____
59 in DPS mode (insufficient for tanking any raid after Reaver)
+9 tower
+1 ritual
___
69 in semi-AC mode (sufficient for VoD and ToD on normal)
+5 CE
___
74 in full-AC mode (sufficient for VoD and ToD on hard, but DPS is so low that unlikely to maintain aggro)

What DPS melee would be just barely passable in their role after spending that many AP, item slots and feats on doing their job? Part of the problem is that there is relatively little middle ground for AC, and very little for AC threat-tanking vs. basically every other role in every other quest, where having half of the equipment, but the right feats, stats and enhancements will allow you to accomplish your task successfully and often without issue.

The difference between a melee with the Frenzied Berserker set (+2 damage/swing) and one without is much less than that between a tank with the DoS/Stalwart set (+2 AC) and one without.

My barbarian has successfully main tanked raids on epic while being woefully under geared (NO Shroud items, almost no raid items, no epic gear...), while my double-TR'ed tome-laden, Christmas Tree of named/raid loot tank was struggling to main tank ToD on Hard at level 19 because he was missing 6 points of AC that came at lvl 20 (tier III DoS for +1 max Dex, +1 from stance, +2 from ToD set, and +2 max Dex from Epic Vambraces).

That right there tells the whole story. Something needs to be done about the way AC (and the AC/hate combination) function in the latter half of DDO. One solution may be consolidating AC bonuses, by offering alternative sources for everything (someone besides bards with an AC song-effect, someone besides paladins with an AC aura effect, duplicates of stuff like +2 Dodge, +4 Dodge, +4 Insight, +3 Dodge, etc...).

your not gonan even give them insight 4? adding jsut that +4 makes those numebrs alot better for the nomral hard power attack tanking. and really you shouldnt be tankign anyhitng without insight 4 unless yo uhave uber ac to start with. take away the tower give them two weapon def + insight +4 + shield wand and your looking at close to 70 espeically if they dont have their set bonus. wearing daggertooths belt insteld to raise their max dex higher than 3. twf without ce around 70 is good enough for tod and vod normal. add in ship buffs for 3 more and your in the no hit range roughly all with jsut 12 larges invested. what new player cant do that after a month or two of being 20?


69
minus 10 from now tower wit hritual on it
59
1 twd
4 insight
4 shield wand
2 more max dex at least
3 ship buffs
73 total without ce or def fighting
3 more from chattering ring
few more from red plate with blow slot max dex increase
and your looking at 77-80 twf pa ac as a pure pally.

[sephiroth1084]

your not gonan even give them insight 4? adding jsut that +4 makes those numebrs alot better for the nomral hard power attack tanking. and really you shouldnt be tankign anyhitng without insight 4 unless yo uhave uber ac to start with. take away the tower give them two weapon def + insight +4 + shield wand and your looking at close to 70 espeically if they dont have their set bonus. wearing daggertooths belt insteld to raise their max dex higher than 3. twf without ce around 70 is good enough for tod and vod normal. add in ship buffs for 3 more and your in the no hit range roughly all with jsut 12 larges invested. what new player cant do that after a month or two of being 20?


69
minus 10 from now tower wit hritual on it
59
1 twd
4 insight
4 shield wand
2 more max dex at least
3 ship buffs
73 total without ce or def fighting
3 more from chattering ring
few more from red plate with blow slot max dex increase
and your looking at 77-80 twf pa ac as a pure pally.

My point Spyder, was that without the top-end hard to acquire gear, they cannot fulfill their task, which is not the case for anyone else. It's entirely possible to get to cap before being able to craft an Insight 4 weapon, especially if you don't want to blow larges on a quick single-shard one.

Also, building for the TWF version is much more difficult and requires a lot more equipment. Drop all of your stats to +2 tomes, no epic items, no Shroud gear, no, or little, raid gear...which among other things also means that your UMD will be rather low.

Think about how much time it took to acquire all of the gear that made you tank, Junts' tank, my tank suitable raid tanks. Now consider how much shorter it takes to cap a character now. There's a tremendous difference of time, during which a character is very likely entirely unable to fulfill the role for which they are built. And I was just referring to the AC here; without some excellent gear such a character is very likely unable to generate enough threat to hold aggro vs. even moderately high DPS characters.

[Sirea]

Eh, cutting through all the technical chatter, it still doesn't make sense to me that a PrE won't stack with a level 6 enhancement, even with the proposed changes to Intimidate. But then again, I was against Paladins getting Intim as a class skill to start with. It's bad enough that we can't use Rage or Madstone while in stance (BTW, has it ever been said if that is WAI or not?).

I could deal with the reduced hate gen from the stances if it at least stacked with DR.

[Quikster]

My point Spyder, was that without the top-end hard to acquire gear, they cannot fulfill their task, which is not the case for anyone else. It's entirely possible to get to cap before being able to craft an Insight 4 weapon, especially if you don't want to blow larges on a quick single-shard one.

Also, building for the TWF version is much more difficult and requires a lot more equipment. Drop all of your stats to +2 tomes, no epic items, no Shroud gear, no, or little, raid gear...which among other things also means that your UMD will be rather low.

Think about how much time it took to acquire all of the gear that made you tank, Junts' tank, my tank suitable raid tanks. Now consider how much shorter it takes to cap a character now. There's a tremendous difference of time, during which a character is very likely entirely unable to fulfill the role for which they are built. And I was just referring to the AC here; without some excellent gear such a character is very likely unable to generate enough threat to hold aggro vs. even moderately high DPS characters.

Yep I agree. 100% a guy shouldnt be able to roll his alt for ac, run to 20, and be able to hit the ac number required to main tank a lvl 19 raid. If he wants to tank he can go do reaver or vod. If he wants to main tank the highest non epic raid in the game, he should have to get a little gear.

Saying your barb has done it, well was this during the WoE/Tendon Slice bug era? If it was those two effects highly favor no ac high hp tanks. Doing it on a barb without those effects puts much more pressure on the healer to keep you up, and leaves the margin for error much smaller. In otherwords, much less needs to go wrong before the healer starts using resources. Not a very fair comparison if thats the case.

[spyderwolf]

My point Spyder, was that without the top-end hard to acquire gear, they cannot fulfill their task, which is not the case for anyone else. It's entirely possible to get to cap before being able to craft an Insight 4 weapon, especially if you don't want to blow larges on a quick single-shard one.

Also, building for the TWF version is much more difficult and requires a lot more equipment. Drop all of your stats to +2 tomes, no epic items, no Shroud gear, no, or little, raid gear...which among other things also means that your UMD will be rather low.

Think about how much time it took to acquire all of the gear that made you tank, Junts' tank, my tank suitable raid tanks. Now consider how much shorter it takes to cap a character now. There's a tremendous difference of time, during which a character is very likely entirely unable to fulfill the role for which they are built. And I was just referring to the AC here; without some excellent gear such a character is very likely unable to generate enough threat to hold aggro vs. even moderately high DPS characters.

ok take away 4 dex 4 wis ( 2 each from helm,gloves, ring,off hand min 2) no matter what you think insight 4 on a shroud weapon is not top end gear or hard to aquire. ill even let ya take away +3 dex and wis tome and the mabar claok.'
so thats 6-8 ac(6 if you use +1 wis and dex guild shrines, 8 if ya dont). still id have an 81(83 with the +1 stats shrines) self buff pa ac twf. 85(87) with bard song.

how is that hard to do ?

you sayins drop all shroud gear , all raid gear ,all tomes, etc etc is kinda stupid. wh yeven bother playing the game if your not willing t otry and aquire the gear to make your toon better?

as far as guild buffs go, its literally jsut a matter of time before EVERYONE gets tham, even if your a solo player and the only person in yoru guild, you WILL get them eventually, so not counting them is crazy.

no one should be able to tank end game content effectively without end game gear, otherwise why build anyhting other than 800 hp kensai and frenzies.

[sephiroth1084]

Yep I agree. 100% a guy shouldnt be able to roll his alt for ac, run to 20, and be able to hit the ac number required to main tank a lvl 19 raid. If he wants to tank he can go do reaver or vod. If he wants to main tank the highest non epic raid in the game, he should have to get a little gear.

Saying your barb has done it, well was this during the WoE/Tendon Slice bug era? If it was those two effects highly favor no ac high hp tanks. Doing it on a barb without those effects puts much more pressure on the healer to keep you up, and leaves the margin for error much smaller. In otherwords, much less needs to go wrong before the healer starts using resources. Not a very fair comparison if thats the case.

ok take away 4 dex 4 wis ( 2 each from helm,gloves, ring,off hand min 2) no matter what you think insight 4 on a shroud weapon is not top end gear or hard to aquire. ill even let ya take away +3 dex and wis tome and the mabar claok.'
so thats 6-8 ac(6 if you use +1 wis and dex guild shrines, 8 if ya dont). still id have an 81(83 with the +1 stats shrines) self buff pa ac twf. 85(87) with bard song.

how is that hard to do ?

you sayins drop all shroud gear , all raid gear ,all tomes, etc etc is kinda stupid. wh yeven bother playing the game if your not willing t otry and aquire the gear to make your toon better?

as far as guild buffs go, its literally jsut a matter of time before EVERYONE gets tham, even if your a solo player and the only person in yoru guild, you WILL get them eventually, so not counting them is crazy.

no one should be able to tank end game content effectively without end game gear, otherwise why build anyhting other than 800 hp kensai and frenzies.

Yes, I've tanked both before and after the WoE **** on my barbarian with little gear. Seriously, he has close to nothing of note in terms of tanking or even DPS additions. Having 750ish HP (now around 820 with a little more equipment) was often more of a buffer than high AC and 600 HP--one failed Disintegrate and a couple badges on the latter equals dead tank, whereas on the former there's likely some time to get a heal in there.

My point is that no other role in the game requires such a ridiculous degree of specialization and rare loot to just get the job done. You say no one should be able to tank the top end raids without acquiring most of this equipment, but my question is why? Wouldn't it make more sense for there to be a wider sliding scale, where characters trying to get the gear can still perform the task reasonably, while characters with all of it can perform it well?

A lot of us are used to having all of this stuff as soon as we got into ToD because we were sitting at cap for over a year, with finite content just collecting stuff and waiting for the cap to go up, but now we have players coming up through the levels without having to spend months on end running Shroud at lvl 16 before getting into ToD. This was the case with my barbarian who leveled just behind the cap increase. It's why he's running epics and elite raids with very little equipment.

I dislike the fact that my tank who, as I said, had basically everything a tank could want, was having a harder time tanking Hard ToD than my barbarian with nothing, simply because I was missing the last bits of AC that were a level off and had to use CE instead of PA.

Think about how ridiculous everyone thought the original trap DCs in Epic VoN 5 were, where basically only Mechanics with nearly every piece of trap-related gear could drop them. We're in the same spot as far as AC threat tanks go. My breakdown above was showing that with a perfect party, a tank without their gear was just barely a reasonable tank on normal. Run one of those without a bard and you're in trouble.

Quik, Spyder, you don't find this the least bit ridiculous?

[spyderwolf]

Quik, Spyder, you don't find this the least bit ridiculous?

no because unlike von 5 epic where you actually get differnt things for completing.( token , seals)

the only difference in normal-hard-eltie tod is slightly increaed drop chance for the same items. hard and eltie are supposed to be harder and mroe elite. jsut the fact that a tank with jsut decent gear can do normal shows its working fine.

hard and eltie are completely optional. there is not anyhting saying poeple must be able to run hard/elite raids

at this point it just seems we have differeing opinions on stuff. i dont think yo ushould be albe to jsut go tank hard and eltie without really good gear, and you seem to want ot be able to do so. no point in continuing to argue

[sephiroth1084]

no because unlike von 5 epic where you actually get differnt things for completing.( token , seals)

the only difference in normal-hard-eltie tod is slightly increaed drop chance for the same items. hard and eltie are supposed to be harder and mroe elite. jsut the fact that a tank with jsut decent gear can do normal shows its working fine.

hard and eltie are completely optional. there is not anyhting saying poeple must be able to run hard/elite raids

at this point it just seems we have differeing opinions on stuff. i dont think yo ushould be albe to jsut go tank hard and eltie without really good gear, and you seem to want ot be able to do so. no point in continuing to argue

I agree about Hard and Elite, to a degree (the comparison I made between my paladin and barbarian was on hard), but normal?

[Quikster]

Yes, I've tanked both before and after the WoE **** on my barbarian with little gear. Seriously, he has close to nothing of note in terms of tanking or even DPS additions. Having 750ish HP (now around 820 with a little more equipment) was often more of a buffer than high AC and 600 HP--one failed Disintegrate and a couple badges on the latter equals dead tank, whereas on the former there's likely some time to get a heal in there.

My point is that no other role in the game requires such a ridiculous degree of specialization and rare loot to just get the job done. You say no one should be able to tank the top end raids without acquiring most of this equipment, but my question is why? Wouldn't it make more sense for there to be a wider sliding scale, where characters trying to get the gear can still perform the task reasonably, while characters with all of it can perform it well?

A lot of us are used to having all of this stuff as soon as we got into ToD because we were sitting at cap for over a year, with finite content just collecting stuff and waiting for the cap to go up, but now we have players coming up through the levels without having to spend months on end running Shroud at lvl 16 before getting into ToD. This was the case with my barbarian who leveled just behind the cap increase. It's why he's running epics and elite raids with very little equipment.

I dislike the fact that my tank who, as I said, had basically everything a tank could want, was having a harder time tanking Hard ToD than my barbarian with nothing, simply because I was missing the last bits of AC that were a level off and had to use CE instead of PA.

Think about how ridiculous everyone thought the original trap DCs in Epic VoN 5 were, where basically only Mechanics with nearly every piece of trap-related gear could drop them. We're in the same spot as far as AC threat tanks go. My breakdown above was showing that with a perfect party, a tank without their gear was just barely a reasonable tank on normal. Run one of those without a bard and you're in trouble.

Quik, Spyder, you don't find this the least bit ridiculous?

Im sorry but I disagre. Ive healed barbs and ac tanks on horoth on normal through elite before the woe tendon slice buff, and its not fun at all. Playing yo yo with the barbs hitpoint bar is very frustrating. An ac tank takes significantly less damage.

A halfway decent defender should be able to get to the ac mark to significantly reduce incoming damage with very little gear. That said, I dont think someone with no gear should be able to dual wield against horoth on normal. They should have to go do some shrouds and get an insight weapon, they should have to farm for some decent armor. Nobody is saying they cant do the raid, just that they shouldnt be main tank. IMO thinking any newb that can level an build they read here to 20 should be able to tank is like putting every kid enrolled in a school on the honor roll. Thats not the way it should be in my mind.

[TechNoFear]

My point Spyder, was that without the top-end hard to acquire gear, they cannot fulfill their task, which is not the case for anyone else.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

Why should a new player be able to step off the ship and hate tank the highest non epic raid on elite without taking a bunch of damage?

In which post did I mention 'new players' or allude that spyder had not worked for every piece of gear or mention elite raids?

Please try to respond to what I actually posted.

I pointed out that when balancing any class / game mechanic you should consider the 'average player' (not just the 'uber equiped players', nor just the 'new players').

[Quikster]

Exactly what I was trying to say.



In which post did I mention 'new players' or allude that spyder had not worked for every piece of gear or mention elite raids?

Please try to respond to what I actually posted.

I pointed out that when balancing any class / game mechanic you should consider the 'average player' (not just the 'uber equiped players', nor just the 'new players').

And the average equipd player should be able to reach the ac benchmarks to tank on normal.

[sephiroth1084]

And the average equipd player should be able to reach the ac benchmarks to tank on normal.

While also maintaining aggro?

[Junts]

I said this in the Lamannia thread but I think you guys are neglecting that it really is significant to be able to tank and hold aggro even if you do not actually only get hit on a crit (keep in mind, some of these mobs, like Suulo, have crit ranges greater than 20 only).

If you get hit on a 4 and better, you're still mitigating a gigantica mount of damage. Yes, the increase from 4 to 2 is exponential (it reduces the damage you are taking in melee even further, though not by as much as youd think beause these guys all graze in the 20s-30s, which is why shield blocking/intimidating is great: grazes stop doing damage). It can be worth dropping combat expertise for PA even if you aren't only hit on a 2 with PA up, and I've done this many times. Somtimes ce is not actually +5 ac but only +2 or 3 and immunity from being hit extra if haste or recite drop. Its important to recognize that taking more damage and holding threat is ok, and that there's an equilibrium between "i am never hit' and "i am a barbarian".

A fresh level 18 tank with no raid loot shoudl not expect to walk into a normal raid and be nearly impervious to damage. That isn't necessary for that tank to succeed and do a good job with even marginal awareness by other players.