Major Nerf to DoS Coming

[Sirea]

So, currently the Defender of Siberys Stances are supposed to grant hate generation in tiers of 50%/100%/200% while active. Of course, they are broken right now. But according to the Lamannia release notes from 11-5-10, the stances are fixed, but being changed to only grant 25%/33%/50% and this bonus is being typed as a Sacred Bonus. Furthermore, Divine Righteousness is now also typed as a Sacred Bonus, meaning it won't stack with the stances.

Double-Yew Tee Eff.

[Burtle]

...*removed due to the fact I might get in trouble for what I say*

[Kominalito]

i'm guessing half elf pallies will get all the good parking spaces at the Stormreach Mall now.

[Sirea]

Between this and Paladins getting Intim as a class skill I suppose we're just expected to sit there and shield block like all the other tanks now

[DMCain]

I like the Defender PrE line, but I've never used it cuz of the movement hit.

[Musouka]

I like the Defender PrE line, but I've never used it cuz of the movement hit.

Same here. Instead of hate generation from strikes, perhaps they should make you have an aura that incites hate and draws aggro to you without hitting, because of the slowed movement.

[Sirea]

I like the Defender PrE line, but I've never used it cuz of the movement hit.

Tumble FTW. For +4 STR and CON, +3 to saves and +4 to AC I can deal with -50% movement.

[Asketes]

Between this and Paladins getting Intim as a class skill I suppose we're just expected to sit there and shield block like all the other tanks now

you mean have DPS like all the other tanks right?


cuz that's what a tank is, DPS and HP

[TheDearLeader]

you mean have DPS like all the other tanks right?


cuz that's what a tank is, DPS and HP

Definition of TANK
1
dialect : pond, pool; especially : one built as a water supply
2
: a usually large receptacle for holding, transporting, or storing liquids (as water or fuel)
3
: an enclosed heavily armed and armored combat vehicle that moves on tracks
4
: a prison cell or enclosure used especially for receiving prisoners

Merriam Webster tends to disagree.

I don't play DoS, KotC tasty damage ftw. I've LRed, have Intimidate as a class skill. Guild was doing an Epic Chronoscope last night, I was Intimidating to keep the big bad facing my way, but then I stopped... and realized that I didn't need to, because I already had established Hate via DPS. The parts where I turtled up were less productive, as I wasn't contributing to the party's Deeps, and healing was similar either way. (masses on the party and such).

So... perhaps with DoS, pop on the Divine Righteousness, pull out the Dual Epic Chaosblades or whatever tasty stuff you use, and go crazy? I dunno. Just tossing stuff out there.

[Burtle]

I repeat:

...*removed due to the fact I might get in trouble for what I say*

[Angelus_dead]

So, currently the Defender of Siberys Stances are supposed to grant hate generation in tiers of 50%/100%/200% while active. Of course, they are broken right now.

To be a nerf, you would've had to have something to start with. The ability never actually worked before, so improving it is the opposite of a nerf.

Tumble FTW. For +4 STR and CON, +3 to saves and +4 to AC I can deal with -50% movement.

Shame defensive tanks were just nerfed -4 con from Madstone Rage. That's something that bears complaining...

[Junts]

To be a nerf, you would've had to have something to start with. The ability never actually worked before, so improving it is the opposite of a nerf.


Shame defensive tanks were just nerfed -4 con from Madstone Rage. That's something that bears complaining...

While functional stances is nice, the decision to make divine righteousness not stack with the stance is pretty poor. +50% threat is not an adequate tool for a s/b character to retain aggro from dps characters on DDO. It should not be a threat loss to activate your stance and lose Song of Recklessness, but it will be.

I play a character who is extremely optimized for dealing damage with 1 hand. I require minimal rampup time even in combat expertise when using divine righteousness. I will not be able to get by using the 50% from the stance when others are dpsing my target. In consequence, I will gain primarily a secondary benefit: extra threat while others are killing Suulomades in tod, for example.

However, my character is optimized to use divine righteousness and can still barely do so effectively. I have the paladin capstone, paladin damage buffs, the Khopesh feat exclusively for my s/b dps, an extremely high strength and great divine might, etc. More of my feats are devoted to DPS than are devoted to my armor class.

Many people have made defender builds, both paladin and fighter, which were defensive in nature, enhancing intimidate, dr, and other defensive effects. These characters remain ineffective, because a 50% threat modifier will not even come close to enabling them to hold aggro; in many cases they are 30-40% dps behind my S/B mode. Not using Khopeshes, having starting strengths well below 17-18, etc are tremendously negative effects on their threat generation. It is really unfortunate that these builds and characters are not supported by the defender lines. Not being specced to deal damage is a gigantic problem to overcome on DDO in general because its so rare that traits that aren't damage dealing are useful. These builds are being told that they are in fact not just usually useless, but always useless and the only way to do the job for which they're created is, again, to max out their dps as much as possible.

This is even worse for fighters, who have no divine righteousness option.

A much better alternative would have been to accord the stances larger bonuses (topping out at +100%, possibly), and then if divine righteousness is intended to be slightly better than stance, reduce its benefit and make it stack.

Right now, you can get better threat generation through investing in 6 paladin levels (divine righteousness) than you can gain from 18 levels of fighter or paladin. The defensive stances are further relative nerfs to threat generation because of the loss of rage effects, especially inspire recklessness. If you want to be a good threat tank on DDO, the last thing you want to do is be a defender, or if you are one, use a defensive stance. Outside their +4 ac modifier, they are entirely inferior to the buffs which they now preclude you from gaining. You gain more damage and more hit points from rage+madstone rage+inspire recklessness than you could possibly garner from defensive stance.

Further, this contributes to the already-noticable factor that defender of siberys is less appealing than stalwart defender:

Defender of Siberys' threat generation is superceded by a level 6 enhancement; hybrid fighter/paladins can stack that enhancement with stalwart stance.

Defender of Siberys provides +1 ac above its dex-bonus/stance modifiers (improved auras). Stalwart defender provides 3 more (1 ac per tier).

Stalwart defender provides static dr/6. Defender of Siberys provides 3 clicky effects that compete with the much more important divine might/divine righteousness for turn undead usage: a magic circle effect, a mass shield of faith effect, and a very powerful 30s buff on a 5m cooldown.

Defender of Siberys provides some useful modifications to generalist paladin abilities (extra lay on hands, extra turn undead attempt) which do help compensate for this drawback.

However, its disturbing when the main focus of both enhancement lines is tanking and armor class, and the fighter line consistently provides larger benefits (ac), unique benefits (dr) or benefit stacking not available to the paladin variant (threat generation). It would be appropriate if the paladin variant contained some of its own inherent, tank-related benefit, like increased healing amplification or something else appropriate to the paladin class. However, it doesn't.

There's also the fact that, now, defender of siberys is gigantically more expensive in terms of AP than stalwart defender, because the standardization of "improved skill" enhancements does not benefit paladins whatsoever, as all their prestige enhancement lines require specific paladin abilities that were not impacted by this change. Defender of Siberys is incredibly expensive in AP terms on the most AP-intensive class in the game.

While I'd agree a stacking +200% threat modifier might have been an outsized compensation for this, in practice paladin tank play will not change more than the tiniest little bit due to this change, as divine righteousness will remain essential for doing the job, and it renders the stance's threat benefit completely obsolete.

[AylinIsAwesome]

While functional stances is nice, the decision to make divine righteousness not stack with the stance is pretty poor. +50% threat is not an adequate tool for a s/b character to retain aggro from dps characters on DDO. It should not be a threat loss to activate your stance and lose Song of Recklessness, but it will be.

I play a character who is extremely optimized for dealing damage with 1 hand. I require minimal rampup time even in combat expertise when using divine righteousness. I will not be able to get by using the 50% from the stance when others are dpsing my target. In consequence, I will gain primarily a secondary benefit: extra threat while others are killing Suulomades in tod, for example.

However, my character is optimized to use divine righteousness and can still barely do so effectively. I have the paladin capstone, paladin damage buffs, the Khopesh feat exclusively for my s/b dps, an extremely high strength and great divine might, etc. More of my feats are devoted to DPS than are devoted to my armor class.

Many people have made defender builds, both paladin and fighter, which were defensive in nature, enhancing intimidate, dr, and other defensive effects. These characters remain ineffective, because a 50% threat modifier will not even come close to enabling them to hold aggro; in many cases they are 30-40% dps behind my S/B mode. Not using Khopeshes, having starting strengths well below 17-18, etc are tremendously negative effects on their threat generation. It is really unfortunate that these builds and characters are not supported by the defender lines. Not being specced to deal damage is a gigantic problem to overcome on DDO in general because its so rare that traits that aren't damage dealing are useful. These builds are being told that they are in fact not just usually useless, but always useless and the only way to do the job for which they're created is, again, to max out their dps as much as possible.

This is even worse for fighters, who have no divine righteousness option.

A much better alternative would have been to accord the stances larger bonuses (topping out at +100%, possibly), and then if divine righteousness is intended to be slightly better than stance, reduce its benefit and make it stack.

Right now, you can get better threat generation through investing in 6 paladin levels (divine righteousness) than you can gain from 18 levels of fighter or paladin. The defensive stances are further relative nerfs to threat generation because of the loss of rage effects, especially inspire recklessness. If you want to be a good threat tank on DDO, the last thing you want to do is be a defender, or if you are one, use a defensive stance. Outside their +4 ac modifier, they are entirely inferior to the buffs which they now preclude you from gaining. You gain more damage and more hit points from rage+madstone rage+inspire recklessness than you could possibly garner from defensive stance.

Further, this contributes to the already-noticable factor that defender of siberys is less appealing than stalwart defender:

Defender of Siberys' threat generation is superceded by a level 6 enhancement; hybrid fighter/paladins can stack that enhancement with stalwart stance.

Defender of Siberys provides +1 ac above its dex-bonus/stance modifiers (improved auras). Stalwart defender provides 3 more (1 ac per tier).

Stalwart defender provides static dr/6. Defender of Siberys provides 3 clicky effects that compete with the much more important divine might/divine righteousness for turn undead usage: a magic circle effect, a mass shield of faith effect, and a very powerful 30s buff on a 5m cooldown.

Defender of Siberys provides some useful modifications to generalist paladin abilities (extra lay on hands, extra turn undead attempt) which do help compensate for this drawback.

However, its disturbing when the main focus of both enhancement lines is tanking and armor class, and the fighter line consistently provides larger benefits (ac), unique benefits (dr) or benefit stacking not available to the paladin variant (threat generation). It would be appropriate if the paladin variant contained some of its own inherent, tank-related benefit, like increased healing amplification or something else appropriate to the paladin class. However, it doesn't.

There's also the fact that, now, defender of siberys is gigantically more expensive in terms of AP than stalwart defender, because the standardization of "improved skill" enhancements does not benefit paladins whatsoever, as all their prestige enhancement lines require specific paladin abilities that were not impacted by this change. Defender of Siberys is incredibly expensive in AP terms on the most AP-intensive class in the game.

While I'd agree a stacking +200% threat modifier might have been an outsized compensation for this, in practice paladin tank play will not change more than the tiniest little bit due to this change, as divine righteousness will remain essential for doing the job, and it renders the stance's threat benefit completely obsolete.

I want to echo this right here. The stance benefits should stack.

[sephiroth1084]

while Functional Stances Is Nice, The Decision To Make Divine Righteousness Not Stack With The Stance Is Pretty Poor. +50% Threat Is Not An Adequate Tool For A S/b Character To Retain Aggro From Dps Characters On Ddo. It Should Not Be A threat Loss To Activate Your Stance And Lose Song Of Recklessness, But It Will Be.

I Play A Character Who Is Extremely Optimized For Dealing Damage With 1 Hand. I Require Minimal Rampup Time Even In Combat Expertise When Using Divine Righteousness. I Will Not Be Able To Get By Using The 50% From The Stance When Others Are Dpsing My Target. In Consequence, I Will Gain Primarily A Secondary Benefit: Extra Threat While Others Are Killing Suulomades In Tod, For Example.

However, My Character Is Optimized To Use Divine Righteousness And Can Still Barely Do So Effectively. I Have The Paladin Capstone, Paladin Damage Buffs, The Khopesh Feat Exclusively For My S/b Dps, An Extremely High Strength And Great Divine Might, Etc. More Of My Feats Are Devoted To Dps Than Are Devoted To My Armor Class.

Many People Have Made Defender Builds, Both Paladin And Fighter, Which Were Defensive In Nature, Enhancing Intimidate, Dr, And Other Defensive Effects. These Characters Remain Ineffective, Because A 50% Threat Modifier Will Not Even Come Close To Enabling Them To Hold Aggro; In Many Cases They Are 30-40% Dps Behind my S/b Mode. Not Using Khopeshes, Having Starting Strengths Well Below 17-18, Etc Are Tremendously Negative Effects On Their Threat Generation. It Is Really Unfortunate That These Builds And Characters Are Not Supported By The Defender Lines. Not Being Specced To Deal Damage Is A Gigantic Problem To Overcome On Ddo In General Because Its So Rare That Traits That Aren't Damage Dealing Are Useful. These Builds Are Being Told That They Are In Fact Not Just Usually Useless, But Always Useless And The Only Way To Do The Job For Which They're Created Is, Again, To Max Out Their Dps As Much As Possible.

This Is Even Worse For Fighters, Who Have No Divine Righteousness Option.

A Much Better Alternative Would Have Been To Accord The Stances Larger Bonuses (topping Out At +100%, Possibly), And Then If Divine Righteousness Is Intended To Be Slightly Better Than Stance, Reduce Its Benefit And Make It Stack.

Right Now, You Can Get Better Threat Generation Through Investing In 6 Paladin Levels (divine Righteousness) Than You Can Gain From 18 Levels Of Fighter Or Paladin. The Defensive Stances Are Further Relative Nerfs To Threat Generation Because Of The Loss Of Rage Effects, Especially Inspire Recklessness. If You Want To Be A Good Threat Tank On Ddo, The last Thing You Want To Do Is Be A Defender, Or If You Are One, Use A Defensive Stance. Outside Their +4 Ac Modifier, They Are Entirely Inferior To The Buffs Which They Now Preclude You From Gaining. You Gain More Damage And More Hit Points From Rage+madstone Rage+inspire Recklessness Than You Could Possibly Garner From Defensive Stance.

Further, This Contributes To The Already-noticable Factor That Defender Of Siberys Is Less Appealing Than Stalwart Defender:

Defender Of Siberys' Threat Generation Is Superceded By A Level 6 Enhancement; Hybrid Fighter/paladins Can Stack That Enhancement With Stalwart Stance.

Defender Of Siberys Provides +1 Ac Above Its Dex-bonus/stance Modifiers (improved Auras). Stalwart Defender Provides 3 More (1 Ac Per Tier).

Stalwart Defender Provides Static Dr/6. Defender Of Siberys Provides 3 Clicky Effects That Compete With The Much More Important Divine Might/divine Righteousness For Turn Undead Usage: A Magic Circle Effect, A Mass Shield Of Faith Effect, And A Very Powerful 30s Buff On A 5m Cooldown.

Defender Of Siberys Provides Some Useful Modifications To Generalist Paladin Abilities (extra Lay On Hands, Extra Turn Undead Attempt) Which Do Help Compensate For This Drawback.

However, Its Disturbing When The Main Focus Of Both Enhancement Lines Is Tanking And Armor Class, And The Fighter Line Consistently Provides Larger Benefits (ac), Unique Benefits (dr) Or Benefit Stacking Not Available To The Paladin Variant (threat Generation). It Would Be Appropriate If The Paladin Variant Contained Some Of Its Own Inherent, Tank-related Benefit, Like Increased Healing Amplification Or Something Else Appropriate To The Paladin Class. However, It Doesn't.

There's Also The Fact That, Now, Defender Of Siberys Is Gigantically More Expensive In Terms Of Ap Than Stalwart Defender, Because The Standardization Of "improved Skill" Enhancements Does Not Benefit Paladins Whatsoever, As All Their Prestige Enhancement Lines Require Specific Paladin Abilities That Were Not Impacted By This Change. Defender Of Siberys Is Incredibly Expensive In Ap Terms On The Most Ap-intensive Class In The Game.

While I'd Agree A Stacking +200% Threat Modifier Might Have Been An Outsized Compensation For This, In Practice Paladin Tank Play Will Not Change More Than The Tiniest Little Bit Due To This Change, As Divine Righteousness Will Remain Essential For Doing The Job, And It Renders The Stance's Threat Benefit Completely Obsolete.

Qft

[Xenus_Paradox]

I'm so glad I rolled Knight of the Chalice on my Pally...

[jmonty]

I'm so glad I rolled Knight of the Chalice on my Pally...

i have one of each but they shouldn't be too hard to switch between.

[Junts]

Qft

Here's a great contrast:

When Seph here was TRing his tank, we discussed some things and he made some different choices than I did. Essentially, what Seph chose to do was:

1: drop Khopesh for scimitar, since you aren't s/b that often.
2: still take 2 fighter levels
3: use all 3 of those feats on THF improvements.

(whether or not this actually increased his dps with his 2hander is a separate debate: without an epic sword of shadow, it did, with one, it doesn't)

That's a pretty rational line of thought. Its more rational if you want any chance of being able to intimidate, since paladins don't have intimidate enhancements (or bonuses build into defender of siberys, like stalwart defender -does- have), you'd need feats for that purpose.

However, if you transplated all my equipment to Seph's build (changing the khopeshes to scimitars, naturally), he would have an extremely frustrating time trying to hold aggro away from dps characters of similar gear quality. The loss of 3d6 damage per hit and the 7% or so bonus of the capstone, before the doubling of righteousness, would place his threat generation 40-50 dps-worth behind where I sit. Only the very highest dps in my guild have to throttle themselves around me, most a lot of them are very close and will pull aggro if I let righteousness fall off for even 4-5 seconds. Just losing Khopesh would let them catch me.

Seph's decisions are valid and worthwhile build decisions, especially ones regarding intimidate. People should not be forced to choose between intimidate ability and threat tanking ability. Some people will choose, but the tanking niche on DDO is to narrow to divide it up so much that dedicated tanking characters cannot do both.

People who're choosing anything but pure paladin maxing out the s/b dps traits are still going to have an exceptionally difficult time threat tanking. That's a real pity.

[SisAmethyst]

Ouch, that hurts ... well it not worked before but I agree that it should more finish out around 100% at Tier III. I can however understand the idea of being both sacred bonus, the stance and Divine Righteousness, but as it then probably will not stack what is the purpose then of either the spell to cast it on top of a stance? Maybe the idea was to be able to skip casting Divine Righteousness and and still keep aggro while in stance and use the spell for times when out of the stance?

Dunno, but it is sad that a character that is designed for tanking and choosing specifically a PrE to do so can't reach at least 100% hate generation to keep the aggro. Next question thou is how this stack with the 10%/15%/20% Incite of the Dragontouched and other items.

[sephiroth1084]

So after begging and pleading for months on end for the threat generating bonuses on the defensive stances to get fixed, what we end up with is a fix for Stalwart Defender, and essentially none for DoS since the hate from the latter doesn't stack with Divine Righteousness, which offers a bigger bonus at an earlier level.

How did the devs think this was a good idea?

The lower hate generation is a separate issue, but can we please get the Defender of Siberys hate bonuses changed to competence as well, please? It seems rather silly for a tier III PrE's ability to be completely overshadowed by a level 6 enhancement for 1 AP.

[Xaearth]

Not quite sure which is more (or less) appropriate to say to this:
1) You just got Shintao'd.
2) You got Necrotic Touch'd by the original Pale Master.

Wait a few more months and they'll think of something.