Major Nerf to DoS Coming

[sephiroth1084]

A dev comment here would be wooooonderful.

[Kinerd]

Most bonuses of the same type though do not stack.

Yes, certainly. But these might.

[AylinIsAwesome]

A dev comment here would be wooooonderful.

Seconded.

[BrotherCranston]

This is an extremly odd game effect change.

Update the threat effects to work. But scale them down to work more appropriatly with the game combat mechanics. If the original caclulations never worked properly: how does one know if they were out of balance vs. game mechanics?

Reading the Release Notes carefully, it does state that the stance bonus' will stack with treasure effects. So things like DT w/ Leviks (3 pc set) will add an additional 50% on top of DoS 3 at 50%.

One other thing I noted. Since the STR and CON bonus for DoS are Sacred - I guarentee they will no longer stack with Divine Might. I am sure that will not have eny effect on Paladin DPS what-so-ever. HAHAHA

So when these effects do take place: does anyone have real thoughts on whether DoS will should even be considered a viable PrC choice any longer?

I look forward to more thoughts on the subject.

[spyderwolf]

One other thing I noted. Since the STR and CON bonus for DoS are Sacred - I guarentee they will no longer stack with Divine Might. I am sure that will not have eny effect on Paladin DPS what-so-ever. HAHAHA

So when these effects do take place: does anyone have real thoughts on whether DoS will should even be considered a viable PrC choice any longer?

I look forward to more thoughts on the subject.

one thing i noted from this part of your post, you dont understand what these things even do. the stances give str and con. divine might gives damage. not str or con. they dont give the same thing, so stacking wont matter.

[Ralmeth]

This is an extremly odd game effect change.

Update the threat effects to work. But scale them down to work more appropriatly with the game combat mechanics. If the original caclulations never worked properly: how does one know if they were out of balance vs. game mechanics?

The issue is that divine righteousness (already in the game) doubles your hate or +100%. Thus we know how much hate we gather with the current game mechanics and +100% hate. With a reduction to +50% hate, this will noticeably reduce a Paladin's ability to hate tank. The only thing I like (quite a bit) about the change is that you will no longer need to keep hitting a 1 minute clicky (i.e. divine righteousness), which is just annoying.

Reading the Release Notes carefully, it does state that the stance bonus' will stack with treasure effects. So things like DT w/ Leviks (3 pc set) will add an additional 50% on top of DoS 3 at 50%.

The issue is that DoS builds already require quite a bit of grinding to find some of the most difficult to find gear in DDO. So with the latest change the developers nerf hate generation from the DoS stance and imply that to be viable you must grind some more hard to find gear so you can get +hate generation items to get back to where you should have been at? Feels like a slap in the face to me. And which spare item slots will these go into?

[AylinIsAwesome]

One other thing I noted. Since the STR and CON bonus for DoS are Sacred - I guarentee they will no longer stack with Divine Might. I am sure that will not have eny effect on Paladin DPS what-so-ever. HAHAHA

Divine Might gives Sacred Bonus to damage.

The stances give Sacred Bonus to CON and STR.


They are not the same, and will continue to work together.

[sirgog]

Sirgog said a while ago in his Soul Survivor Thread that he thought they stacked in a multiplicative fashion, and I tend to agree with him.


So Brute Fighting 1, Divine Righteousness, the ToD set bonus, and the Epic Claw bonus would give a total threat of ~300%.

The threat boosts stacking multiplicatively comes from a Dev comment on DDOcast a long time ago. I can't link to it, but it's definitely correct.

Problem is that Brute Fighting is only available to two races, half the melees out there are using the Epic Claw set, and you need to be a useful toon to get your hands upon the ToD set. A highly geared DoS might be able to hold aggro from an equally geared barbarian, but can an ungeared, freshly level 20 DoS hold aggro from an ungeared, freshly 20 Bbn? If not, something is wrong.

[Eladrin]

The issue is that divine righteousness (already in the game) doubles your hate or +100%. Thus we know how much hate we gather with the current game mechanics and +100% hate. With a reduction to +50% hate, this will noticeably reduce a Paladin's ability to hate tank. The only thing I like (quite a bit) about the change is that you will no longer need to keep hitting a 1 minute clicky (i.e. divine righteousness), which is just annoying.

It can't noticeably reduce a Paladin's ability to hate tank - the defensive stance is currently giving +0% hate, but will be giving a +50% Sacred bonus to melee threat after the patch. Divine Righteousness will still give you a +100% Sacred bonus to melee and magical threat while it's active - it's not a passive ability, so it can have higher values.

These changes are precursors to a combat skills pass. One of the intimidate changes will be to add a lingering threat multiplier after using the skill. Without this current change, we'll run into some problems later. (We'd either have to lower the threat multiplier then, which wouldn't be great - you'd be used to the larger numbers - or type the lingering intimidate threat multipliers on the same channel as the defensive stance threat multipliers, which isn't desirable either.)

[TheDearLeader]

Good response. We're making the change for something we'll change later.

Thank you for giving us something, I suppose.

By the way, I think there's another thread at this moment that keeps hitting the top of the "new posts" list that needs your attention, since you're around and all...

[Eladrin]

Good response. We're making the change for something we'll change later.

Thank you for giving us something, I suppose.

We didn't want to hold the fix to the stances until the combat skills pass is done, so I figured that changing the values now was better than the alternatives (holding the bug fix, or facing the righteous fury for lowering it later after people got used to the old numbers ).

[sirgog]

These changes are precursors to a combat skills pass. One of the intimidate changes will be to add a lingering threat multiplier after using the skill. Without this current change, we'll run into some problems later. (We'd either have to lower the threat multiplier then, which wouldn't be great - you'd be used to the larger numbers - or type the lingering intimidate threat multipliers on the same channel as the defensive stance threat multipliers, which isn't desirable either.)

I'm not sure what I think of this.

Intimidate is quite dangerous in situations where you want to keep two bosses separate (Horoth/Suulo comes to mind, as does Judge/Jailer, and probably future content) or in situations where you might want to aggro a boss but not aggro trash with them (VoD comes to mind here).

If this goes active, I suggest making Intimidate a skill with two uses - the 'taunt' use we have now, and a completely separate threat multiplier use.

[Failedlegend]

We didn't want to hold the fix to the stances until the combat skills pass is done, so I figured that changing the values now was better than the alternatives (holding the bug fix, or facing the righteous fury for lowering it later after people got used to the old numbers ).

While your here Eladrin are the ranged combat improvements still being done?

[TechNoFear]

One of the intimidate changes will be to add a lingering threat multiplier after using the skill. Without this current change, we'll run into some problems later. (We'd either have to lower the threat multiplier then, which wouldn't be great - you'd be used to the larger numbers - or type the lingering intimidate threat multipliers on the same channel as the defensive stance threat multipliers, which isn't desirable either.)

I was hoping not to have to buy a (another) Heart of Wood for my paladin.

I had planned to ignore the changes to Intimidate that requires me to spend TPs to take advantage of (22 skill points only got him 11 ranks) and use the Hate generation.

Now you are saying that to successfully Hate tank (especially after this 'combat skills pass') I will be required to buy a LR? (as a combo of Intim plus DoS / Divine Right will be required)

Excuse me for not being overly excited.....

These changes are precursors to a combat skills pass.

Any chance you could do a pass on the cost of DoS, as both the Hate bonuses have been reduced and the stances CLW on hit removed? [DoS3 currently costs a minimum least 30 APs and a feat. ]

The 'hidden' cost of an additional feat (making 2 feats) and ~7 stat points are the problem.

To build a viable DoS paladin you have to;
spend at least 30 APs just to get DoS 3.
get the CE feat (which requires an Int of 13)
have a base Dex of ~12 (to use the increases in max dex bonus on armor)
get Tower Shield feat for the blocking DR and +2 AC.

Any chance the 2 spell like abilities DoS grants could have some use at end game?
(Mass Protection and Shield of Faith have no actual/practical use in end game).

I would be interested to hear from DoS paladins that actually use either of these abilities (my DoS has never used either).

[AylinIsAwesome]

It can't noticeably reduce a Paladin's ability to hate tank - the defensive stance is currently giving +0% hate, but will be giving a +50% Sacred bonus to melee threat after the patch. Divine Righteousness will still give you a +100% Sacred bonus to melee and magical threat while it's active - it's not a passive ability, so it can have higher values.

These changes are precursors to a combat skills pass. One of the intimidate changes will be to add a lingering threat multiplier after using the skill. Without this current change, we'll run into some problems later. (We'd either have to lower the threat multiplier then, which wouldn't be great - you'd be used to the larger numbers - or type the lingering intimidate threat multipliers on the same channel as the defensive stance threat multipliers, which isn't desirable either.)

Along with TechNoFear, I would like to second getting the costs for DoS reduced a bit. Paladins are super tight on APs, and the Fighter equivalent did just get an AP cost reduction.

[Coldin]

We didn't want to hold the fix to the stances until the combat skills pass is done, so I figured that changing the values now was better than the alternatives (holding the bug fix, or facing the righteous fury for lowering it later after people got used to the old numbers ).

Would this combat skill pass happen to include changes to Bluff and Improved Feint as well?

[BFD20001]

It can't noticeably reduce a Paladin's ability to hate tank - the defensive stance is currently giving +0% hate, but will be giving a +50% Sacred bonus to melee threat after the patch. Divine Righteousness will still give you a +100% Sacred bonus to melee and magical threat while it's active - it's not a passive ability, so it can have higher values.

These changes are precursors to a combat skills pass. One of the intimidate changes will be to add a lingering threat multiplier after using the skill. Without this current change, we'll run into some problems later. (We'd either have to lower the threat multiplier then, which wouldn't be great - you'd be used to the larger numbers - or type the lingering intimidate threat multipliers on the same channel as the defensive stance threat multipliers, which isn't desirable either.)

Once again you utterly fail to understand the issue - no big surprise there at this stage saddly

All enhancement based threat multipliers are now ""typed"" appropriately. The boosts from these defensive stances have been lowered to better work with our combat systems, but are still substantial and stack with treasure effects

SUBSTANTIAL - this word clearly does not mean what you think it means

[noinfo]

It can't noticeably reduce a Paladin's ability to hate tank - the defensive stance is currently giving +0% hate, but will be giving a +50% Sacred bonus to melee threat after the patch. Divine Righteousness will still give you a +100% Sacred bonus to melee and magical threat while it's active - it's not a passive ability, so it can have higher values.

These changes are precursors to a combat skills pass. One of the intimidate changes will be to add a lingering threat multiplier after using the skill. Without this current change, we'll run into some problems later. (We'd either have to lower the threat multiplier then, which wouldn't be great - you'd be used to the larger numbers - or type the lingering intimidate threat multipliers on the same channel as the defensive stance threat multipliers, which isn't desirable either.)

There are several problems with this in general and don't forget that these apply not only to DOS but to SD as well and they don't get a bonus like divine Righteousness.

When tanking you are on with full ac and damage mitigation gear. Chances are you have CE up and heavy tanks have a Tower Shield up as well.

Those you are trying to hold against have PA on probably have room for epic gloves of the claw etc that are specifically for dps but have a side effect of massive hate generation.
Now the defensive fighters going flat out damage mode will probably hold agro in stance against the most others if the others don't have hate based gear but are not going to be able to once in tank mode or against a moderately geared dps toon with hate gear on.

By putting hate onto gear that is ideal for dps non tanks into slots that may be hard to find on ac tanks space it makes the job of a tanks roll harder to fill afterall they NEED to be able to hold agro off that barb with epic gloves.

Next your change impacts on those who splashed 1 or more parts of DOS or SD. The hate worked fine in those stances, now they are lowered because there is an inability to correctly implement the higher level of hate.

Hate of 50/100 for tier 1 and 2 and if unable to do 200% give them another defensive bonus of some sort intstead. I have yet to see a forum thread on how either of these PRE is over powered. Its bad enough that ac based toons have to deal with grazing hits and overall lack of attention now instead of fixing hate stances they get nerfed as you are only fixing it so that the top stances get to use their full stance bonus with the bottom rung hate.

While I appreciate the fact that a combat/hate work over is scheduled I agree with Sirgog here and have concerns about it being directly being tied to intimidate.

Defensive builds occupy only a very very small percentage of the melee playerbase because they are so difficult to equip, build and play effectively. The one time they did begin to shine, they were quickly nerfed with grazing hits. They then took another hit with Epic (yes you can feel good about yourself with trash mobs but try it in chrono with oranged names everywhere)

1. Make the stances work properly so that they can be effective at all tiers and against hate generating gear
2. Get rid of grazing hits or better yet rework them so that people wearing heavy armour instead of cloth get grazed on a 2-5 where they would normally have taken full damage instead of the negative being grazed on a 15+ when they would normally have been missed.
3. Allow real tanks to do their job. If they can't hold against the barbarian people are not going to use them. Healing amp and high hp should not be the ideal method of tanking in all situations.

[spyderwolf]

To build a viable DoS paladin you have to;
spend at least 30 APs just to get DoS 3.( a bit too steep imo for sure)
get the CE feat (which requires an Int of 13)( huh? my dos has 8 base int and a 89 self buff pa ac while twf)
have a base Dex of ~12 (to use the increases in max dex bonus on armor)( everyone will have different bases, i personally wouldnt start with that low of a dex)
get Tower Shield feat for the blocking DR and +2 AC.(no idea what ya mean, build for twf ac,more dps)

added some thoughts in red.

you can build viable dos pallies right now. and the change doesnt affect anyhtign at all. if anyhting it helps the elite groups with lower dps cause when ya run out of double hate clickies you still have some form of hate going.

if your wanting to build a s/b build that solely intims and shield blocks , then hate doesnt matter, and those builds arent really all that great, you can do a better job on a toon who keeps aggro through dps/hate.

there are plenty of builds already in game that have no problem holding aggro through dps/hate while having the ac required for elite.

[AylinIsAwesome]

added some thoughts in red.

you can build viable dos pallies right now. and the change doesnt affect anyhtign at all. if anyhting it helps the elite groups with lower dps cause when ya run out of double hate clickies you still have some form of hate going.

if your wanting to build a s/b build that solely intims and shield blocks , then hate doesnt matter, and those builds arent really all that great, you can do a better job on a toon who keeps aggro through dps/hate.

there are plenty of builds already in game that have no problem holding aggro through dps/hate while having the ac required for elite.

I wanna know how you're getting to 89 AC self-buffed with Power Attack on.