Abbot

[k1ngp1n]

You dont need logic...you need common sense, which you seem to be lacking. If you really and I mean REALLY think the devs want you farming(be it chests, scrolls, WHATEVER) out of the quests, WITHOUT completing them...I SAY AGAIN...your an idiot.

Wow.

[Tat2Freak]

Wow.

Why not quote the whole thing?

p.s. that was in a general sense "your an idiot" not directly at you...but you seem to think it is, because its us talking...

p.s.s nevermind I guess they changed quotes, you quoted me b4 i edited...could have swore edits used to show up in quotes...

[k1ngp1n]

Why not quote the whole thing?

p.s. that was in a general sense "your an idiot" not directly at you...but you seem to think it is, because its us talking...

p.s.s nevermind I guess they changed quotes, you quoted me b4 i edited...could have swore edits used to show up in quotes...

Ok, I'll quote the part you did direct at me:

you need common sense, which you seem to be lacking

I'm sorry, but I was trying to actual discuss this with you, and was hoping for a distinct, logical argument from you as to why you are correct. Since you've reduced it to insults, I see no further point in continuing.

Later.

[Tat2Freak]

...well...if you dont know me by now...now you do...

[Quikster]

Im not sure how you got stuck on what the devs intended with me. If I said solving abbot puzzles how the devs intended, it was a mistake due to me pounding out replys to quickly. I never considered DI or monk ninja spy solving of ice to be an exploit, cheese maybe, but not exploitative.

Bugging your client to finish goggles I do consider an exploit, not because its not how the devs intended it, but because of the mechanics that make your pc do something not possible in the game.

As far as scroll farming, I have read your replys, and I fail to see how it is exploitative. A scroll drops once the mob dies, hence the monster encounter associated with the reward is being completed. The only case I can recall being exploitative is the trog in atdq I which the issue was never killing mobs, it was making the shaman trog non responsive in order to get unlimited spawns.

Kheg you have no idea what I care about and what I dont. You tell me not to bring up your kids again like I threatened them, you need to relax. What I was attempting to do was make you step back and look at your logic. It is far from sound. I figured putting it in perspective of how you teach your children would help you see that, but evidently it just ****ed you off.

You say im twisting things to suit myself. I can assure you that isnt the case. First if you could show me how farming scrolls is exploitative, I would agree with you, and feel the same way as I do about solving tiles, but you have yet to make that case imo. Second, I have spend literally maybe a half hour farming scrolls in my ddo career. I have spent much more time then that in abbot. Its not a case of ones not important to me, simply one i have spent very little time doing.

We can do this if you like, we both make a post in the general ddo discussion page. You detail how you complete tiles with client freezing, Ill detail how Ive farmed for scrolls. We can both report the others post as sharing exploits, and then see what happens. We can see how the community acts, and if the mods do anything to either of us.


So once again, it was never about what the devs intended. Its never been about twisting things to suit me. I honestly dont see the case your trying to make ( i mean I see it, I just dont buy it) and please dude, settle with the insults.

[vyvy3369]

Im not sure how you got stuck on what the devs intended with me. If I said solving abbot puzzles how the devs intended, it was a mistake due to me pounding out replys to quickly. I never considered DI or monk ninja spy solving of ice to be an exploit, cheese maybe, but not exploitative.

Bugging your client to finish goggles I do consider an exploit, not because its not how the devs intended it, but because of the mechanics that make your pc do something not possible in the game...

With no real way of knowing what the devs intended, the only logical argument I've found for this is whether a reasonable DM would allow similar behavior in PnP. Anyone who played much PnP knows that the PCs VERY rarely do things the way the DM intended it anyways :P.

On the one hand, you have farming scrolls. PnP version: you know an enemy or group of enemies has some item(s) you want. You figure out a plan to kill them, execute said plan, and hope you acquire said item(s). All of which seems reasonable, barring using some exploit to accomplish the killing.

Abbot equivalent in PnP: you need to accomplish X, which (I assume) takes a certain amount of time, or there's some other time-based peril which is normally difficult to overcome (I've never actually stepped in there, so pardon the speculation). To accomplish this, you convince a deity to remove you from existence temporarily, bring you back into existence after the peril is gone, and continue on. PnP version = fail - there are various spells that may accomplish similar goals (Teleport, plane shift, etc.), but that's relying on an action that the character controls, instead of some external force. I mean, maybe if you bribed a deity, somehow...but then again, if you WERE able to bribe a dev, would you really use it on an Abbot completion?

[Tat2Freak]

On the one hand, you have farming scrolls. PnP version: you know an enemy or group of enemies has some item(s) you want. You figure out a plan to kill them, execute said plan, and hope you acquire said item(s). All of which seems reasonable, barring using some exploit to accomplish the killing.

LOL, cause a reasonable dm would set up a quest so all you do is kill a handful of monsters till a scroll dropped then leave his carefully crafted quest, just to step into it again and do it all over...WHATEVER

[Quikster]

With no real way of knowing what the devs intended, the only logical argument I've found for this is whether a reasonable DM would allow similar behavior in PnP. Anyone who played much PnP knows that the PCs VERY rarely do things the way the DM intended it anyways :P.

On the one hand, you have farming scrolls. PnP version: you know an enemy or group of enemies has some item(s) you want. You figure out a plan to kill them, execute said plan, and hope you acquire said item(s). All of which seems reasonable, barring using some exploit to accomplish the killing.

Abbot equivalent in PnP: you need to accomplish X, which (I assume) takes a certain amount of time, or there's some other time-based peril which is normally difficult to overcome (I've never actually stepped in there, so pardon the speculation). To accomplish this, you convince a deity to remove you from existence temporarily, bring you back into existence after the peril is gone, and continue on. PnP version = fail - there are various spells that may accomplish similar goals (Teleport, plane shift, etc.), but that's relying on an action that the character controls, instead of some external force. I mean, maybe if you bribed a deity, somehow...but then again, if you WERE able to bribe a dev, would you really use it on an Abbot completion?

I was never a big pnp person. I played occasionally, but im much more of a gamer. That said I would have a very difficult time comparing something in ddo to what a pnp dm would allow.

Alternately I would think that pnp dms could adjust on the fly accordingly. For example. When you could stand up on top of the portal in tod part 3 and bug out the raid bosses with ranged attacks. I would think a pnp dm would say those mobs fly up to you and do the same damage as if you were standing on the ground next to them. However that is a limitation to the ddo game design unfortunately and those mobs just stood there stupefied.

In the case of farming scrolls, I dont really follow Khegs logic here. I understand the point hes trying to make but Im not buying it. The reward for quest completion is a chance at a shard/seal/token in the epic chest. The reward for killing an epic mob is a 1/100th of a chance (or whatever the chance is) for an epic scroll, or a token fragment, or a collectable. To say going in an epic quest, killing a mob, and taking the collectable/token fragment/scroll that drops is an exploit is silly. Unintended or not there are numerous reason one could enter a quest and not complete. It seems that spending a few minutes killing epic mobs for a chance to get a scroll while you wait for friends to log on, the kids to come home from a friends house, the wife to finish dinner, the dog to take a ****, the list can go on and on, is a preferable way to spend your time (from the turbine point of view) then standing at the ah or browsing through the vendor. Heck turbine even sets up whole instances where you are rewarded for killing a few mobs, or running up to a specific landmark.

In the case of abbot completion. A cheesy tactic would be to go into the goggle room and get the goggles, instantly jump down and die. You then appear back on the main platform, you could take a res, and head back into the tile room with the goggles for the puzzle in front of you, put them on and just run across. run up the stairs, get the other set of goggles. You then go back and beat down the abbot till he sends you back to the puzzles. With the use of spotters you could end up on the unsolved side of tiles and just run across there with the goggles you already received.

While cheesy and prolly unintended, it seems that the devs made the pay off to this less rewarding. You would have multiple deaths by multiple party members trying to do it this way. You would spend your resources (mana etc) by having another abbot fight, and there is always the chance that you wipe on the abbot fight. So using this cheesy tactic is not without risk or cost. On the other hand, using a bug where you remove your pc from all danger until told the coast is all clear by another pc, is imo an exploit. Its a fairly easy distinction and im not sure why kheg is so hung up on it.

I suspect the issue lies in the fact he thinks that I think im somehow better than people that use this method (huh? I already admitted I have done it) and hes out to knock me off my self made pedestal. Which of course is not the case. Honestly the biggest issue I have with the sarlona pug scene concerning abbot is this: People new to the raid, or relatively new to the raid, are less likely to join and lfm put up by someone they know solve tiles legit. The reason isnt because tiles takes longer legit, but because its more likely to fail.

But as several posters have stated, veteran tile solvers can do most tile puzzles in a timely manner, where there is a fixed amount of time to solve asteroids. Tiles can be solved as fast as you can find a route, and run someone across, where roids can only be solved once a certain amount of time or asteroids have been broken. There is no way to speed it up.

Yes it would take a bit more time to complete abbot in the beginning when training tile solvers, but wouldnt it be worth it? If we trained the server as a whole to solve tiles legit the only people that couldnt do it would be a small subset of horrible twitchers, and people with poor connections. Then anyone untrained would have a shot at going across and learning it, instead of having them /sleep in another puzzle because we dont need em in tiles, were hanging

But whatever, Kheg seems to be stuck on trying to knock me down, so I suspect this thread will continue the way it has. I can let the people on Sarlona who have run with us both decide the issue.

[Quikster]

LOL, cause a reasonable dm would set up a quest so all you do is kill a handful of monsters till a scroll dropped then leave his carefully crafted quest, just to step into it again and do it all over...WHATEVER

I have a hard time applying either situation to pnp, but as I stated, I was never a big pnp enthusiast.

That said, I think video game developers have to consider many types of play even from the same person. It stands to reason that they could have easily made another mechanic for getting scrolls. I also cant believe that none of the developers ever though someone might step into a quest and kill mobs just for scroll drops. Im not saying this makes a valid argument, its just icing for me.

The argument for me is the associated quest encounter is completed before getting the reward. If you could find a way to get a mob to drop a scroll without killing it, or to get it to drop multiple scrolls with one kill, I would say bug/exploit, but to say killing a mob and getting a scroll is an exploit because you didnt complete the quest is silly.

[Tat2Freak]

Lol, quik..lol...for the second time...its not about you..I DONT CARE WHAT YOU DO OR HOW YOU DO IT....that's the difference between us...I let you play how you like....for me its fun to try new things, intended or not...kinda wish I was on Mournlands...then most of this stuff would not be possible live...

[Quikster]

Lol, quik..lol...for the second time...its not about you..I DONT CARE WHAT YOU DO OR HOW YOU DO IT....that's the difference between us...I let you play how you like....for me its fun to try new things, intended or not...kinda wish I was on Mournlands...then most of this stuff would not be possible live...

I understand, and disagree. I think it is about me, and you, and anyone else who leads abbot raids.

Honestly Im not here to force you to change anything. But I would like to see the leaders of abbots on Sarlona to stop using tiles exploits. Im not the only one who feels this way obviously. Im confused as to why its still done. Many posters have stated that its easy to do legit, they can do both ways, its often other puzzles that fail, etc, so why even do it to begin with?

Oh, and you made it about me when you started with the personal insults.

[moops]

Wow.
Im glad I still Hate the Abbot. That's right call "Hate" Sir!

I knew there was a reason I avoid grouping with some of the people in this thread--and it wasn't just the rumor of how expensive it is to run with them

[Tat2Freak]

I understand, and disagree. I think it is about me, and you, and anyone else who leads abbot raids.

Honestly Im not here to force you to change anything. But I would like to see the leaders of abbots on Sarlona to stop using tiles exploits. Im not the only one who feels this way obviously. Im confused as to why its still done. Many posters have stated that its easy to do legit, they can do both ways, its often other puzzles that fail, etc, so why even do it to begin with?

Oh, and you made it about me when you started with the personal insults.

Lol whatever dude...but to be honest with you...since you started your white horse push...i HAVE been teaching extras on legit goggles...

[Tat2Freak]

Wow.
Im glad I still Hate the Abbot. That's right call "Hate" Sir!

I knew there was a reason I avoid grouping with some of the people in this thread--and it wasn't just the rumor of how expensive it is to run with them

lol I hope your not refering to me...im the last one to **** a cleric or arcane for healing me...

p.s. is the only reason i carry them...

[k1ngp1n]

and it wasn't just the rumor of how expensive it is to run with them

Hopefully this isn't about me... :P

(<_<) (^_^) (>_>)

Edit: Ahh, the chorus of fear.

[Tat2Freak]

Hopefully this isn't about me... :P

(<_<) (^_^) (>_>)

Edit: Ahh, the chorus of fear.

LOL, aye

[mudfud]

Exploits are still around, Exploits will always be around. Exploiters will always be around. Instead of chastising the exploiters, some need to be thanked.
Would we not have that barrier in reaver if not for exploiters? Because of them this was changed as it rightly should have.
Because of exploiters, we now have random raid loot in chests instead of 2 set drops. Because of exploiters we have minimum lvl required for raids.
I can make this list go on and on for EVERY raid and how it was changed for the BETTER because of what exploiters did.
Do I endorse it, No. I'm a follower so I'll do things how the group wants to. But as far as my rare leader groups go, it won't be done.

[Quikster]

Exploits are still around, Exploits will always be around. Exploiters will always be around. Instead of chastising the exploiters, some need to be thanked.
Would we not have that barrier in reaver if not for exploiters? Because of them this was changed as it rightly should have.
Because of exploiters, we now have random raid loot in chests instead of 2 set drops. Because of exploiters we have minimum lvl required for raids.
I can make this list go on and on for EVERY raid and how it was changed for the BETTER because of what exploiters did.
Do I endorse it, No. I'm a follower so I'll do things how the group wants to. But as far as my rare leader groups go, it won't be done.

IMO exploiting/ers are one thing. But to be using an exploit as the primary method of finishing the raid by nearly every pug on the server, thats a little overboard.

I never came to this thread to chastise anyone, I came here to have a discussion. Sure people are going to do what they are going to do, and never have I said I was a virgin, but I think we as a server can do a little better.

[mudfud]

IMO exploiting/ers are one thing. But to be using an exploit as the primary method of finishing the raid by nearly every pug on the server, thats a little overboard.

I never came to this thread to chastise anyone, I came here to have a discussion. Sure people are going to do what they are going to do, and never have I said I was a virgin, but I think we as a server can do a little better.

Definately I just think on a lower level exploiters should be thanked because of the changes that were made because of them. Hell everyone would probably still be ranging abbott if it wasn't for them.

I think as a server we all just need to say no as a whole, or allow the ones who do it be in there own little corner. But there are always going to be the few who justify it as tactics and/or faster.

[Quikster]

Definately I just think on a lower level exploiters should be thanked because of the changes that were made because of them. Hell everyone would probably still be ranging abbott if it wasn't for them.

I think as a server we all just need to say no as a whole, or allow the ones who do it be in there own little corner. But there are always going to be the few who justify it as tactics and/or faster.

Of course, faster or easier, or more fun. I mean if it wasnt one of those there wouldnt really be any reason to do it would there?