Abbot

[Tat2Freak]

I wouldn't put farming for scrolls at the same level as a free Skiver, Kehg. Doing so is disingenuous at best.

Really? Depending on the scroll bud...you could make 5 skivers trading them...

[Tanka]

Really? Depending on the scroll bud...you could make 5 skivers trading them...

Yes, but it still takes time to farm the scrolls. Freebie tome pages took no time once it was prepped.

[Tat2Freak]

To be honest man...an exploit is an exploit...I don't really see the distinction

I mean if we're talking about "How devs intended", I really doubt they wanted us to use the quests to farm for scrolls....we run an epic quest to completion and if a scroll or two dropped on the way, cool. I would bet money this scenario is closer to right than the first one...

[Tanka]

To be honest man...an exploit is an exploit...I don't really see the distinction

That's your opinion, and obviously you're entitled to it, but I don't particularly see how farming for scrolls can be considered an exploit. If that were the case, again, farming for Bloodstones would be an exploit.

[Zombiekenny]

Here you go nub...

* Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.

The quest objective/monster encounter associated with a scroll drop is killing that monster.
The quest objective associated with looting all those chests listed is getting to them without dying.
Not an exploit, your grabbing for straws here.

[Tat2Freak]

That's your opinion, and obviously you're entitled to it, but I don't particularly see how farming for scrolls can be considered an exploit. If that were the case, again, farming for Bloodstones would be an exploit.

No because its different..you have to kill the named to get the chest...explorer areas and quests are 2 different beasts

[Tat2Freak]

The quest objective/monster encounter associated with a scroll drop is killing that monster.
The quest objective associated with looting all those chests listed is getting to them without dying.
Not an exploit, your grabbing for straws here.

No buddy im not...if anyone is grasping its you...you really believe that the devs wanted you to farm for scrolls...lol what a ****ing laugh

...and to be quite frank if you think the devs like "farming" of any sort your an idiot...

just imagine the game where somehow they got the mechanic to work so you couldnt farm...i think epic/rare items would still be epic/rare....


I just had a wonderful idea...how about all items from a quest are temporary until you actually complete a quest...basically if you wipe or something the mobs loot your bodies...and if you leave...no scrolls for you...you like that idea...

[Hokonoso]

No buddy im not...if anyone is grasping its you...you really believe that the devs wanted you to farm for scrolls...lol what a ****ing laugh

i agree here, if the shards and seals weren't so annoying to get im sure they would have fixed the way to get scrolls cause as it stands, the scroll is the easy part of the equation since you can simply buy it from those in this thread who do nothing but farm them all day

sad part is, putting scrolls at the end of last stand (even if just for a few moons) greatly decreased the value of those scrolls!!! even now the market is broken for those scrolls since they literally dropped every time you beat the quest and anyone could do it, not just those few who farm scrolls. afterall, items that bind have relative value, items that do not have variable value and thus have higher import!

[Zombiekenny]

Devs love farming, farming is time spent playing the game, time sinks are good, and get them money and keep people playing.
Why do you think they make epic such a grind?

[Tat2Freak]

Devs love farming, farming is time spent playing the game, time sinks are good, and get them money and keep people playing.
Why do you think they make epic such a grind?

....and if you couldn't farm, the longevity of the grind is increased....thus more playing/more money....

[Tanka]

....and if you couldn't farm, the longevity of the grind is increased....thus more playing/more money....

But if people become too frustrated with how the game works, they leave, which means less money.

Farming is a necessary part of any MMO. The more tedious the farm (but seemingly better rewarding), the longer a subscriber stays on.

[Qzipoun]

That's your opinion, and obviously you're entitled to it, but I don't particularly see how farming for scrolls can be considered an exploit. If that were the case, again, farming for Bloodstones would be an exploit.

I'm afraid to even post here but whatever...

I think the distinction here is that many people believe that simply doing something in a way that is NOT "how the devs intend it to be done" is exploiting. This becomes tricky because no one has a clue what they intend and from history it is obvious that their intentions flip-flop based on what players do. So Kehg is saying that devs INTEND us to get scrolls by running quests not farming entrances (which is arguably a fair point but one that is not possible to prove/disprove). Many things can easily be labelled a "exploits" with reasonable argument, it's pointless to debate it or point fingers.

I can take the moral highground on exploiting
I can prove my superiority through twitch skills
I can display my awesomeness through uber lootz
I can troll others on the forum or in game
I can diminish others' posts by being a grammar/spelling Nazi
I can feed the drama flames

Or...

I can simply not give a **** and have fun playing the game*

(*highly recommended, Q out of this thread)

[k1ngp1n]

Wow. This has been very entertaining...

I've done gog's both ways, and I far prefer legit as it is more fun (and that is why I play after all). Sitting in mid-air waiting for "Go" simply isn't enjoyable. But I've done it - there are various motivations and I understand why several people exploit it. It is my opinion, though, that solving legit should be the desired mode of completion (both in respect and priority), and we should step away from the crutch that is the exploit.

Perhaps the biggest impediment to legit completion is the *****iness of pugs when it fails (bugged tile / timed it wrong / oops, rotated my character) for whatever reason. People are so used to one-and-done exploit completions that they have no desire to re-damage the way-too-tall Abbot and go again. Then again its my same frustration with groups determined to recall/reform when one puzzle fails.

Really, its an observation I've seen a lot about the DDO culture: brute force > all else. Hence the DPS reigning supreme philosophy in character design and group assembly, huge HP totals, etc. All of the raids that don't utilize brute force are hated or exploited through.

Also, looting a chest in a quest without completing is NOT exploiting if the mob controlling said quest was defeated, as per the guidelines. The idea that you have to complete a quest to loot any chest in said instance is... well.... wow...

* Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.

No where does that say quest.

[Tat2Freak]

Wow. This has been very entertaining...

I've done gog's both ways, and I far prefer legit as it is more fun (and that is why I play after all). Sitting in mid-air waiting for "Go" simply isn't enjoyable. But I've done it - there are various motivations and I understand why several people exploit it. It is my opinion, though, that solving legit should be the desired mode of completion (both in respect and priority), and we should step away from the crutch that is the exploit.

Perhaps the biggest impediment to legit completion is the *****iness of pugs when it fails (bugged tile / timed it wrong / oops, rotated my character) for whatever reason. People are so used to one-and-done exploit completions that they have no desire to re-damage the way-too-tall Abbot and go again. Then again its my same frustration with groups determined to recall/reform when one puzzle fails.

Really, its an observation I've seen a lot about the DDO culture: brute force > all else. Hence the DPS reigning supreme philosophy in character design and group assembly, huge HP totals, etc. All of the raids that don't utilize brute force are hated or exploited through.

Also, looting a chest in a quest without completing is NOT exploiting if the mob controlling said quest was defeated, as per the guidelines. The idea that you have to complete a quest to loot any chest in said instance is... well.... wow...

* Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.

No where does that say quest.

...

[k1ngp1n]

...

Content =/= complete the quest to get ALL chests in said quest. If the chest is award via non-bugged game mechanisms without the completion, a completion is not required to earn said loot.

[Tat2Freak]

...you can twist it to suit your views...i read it like it is...

case in point: EOOB used to be like you want to twist it up...but they changed it didnt they...

[Tanka]

...you can twist it to suit your views...

One might surmise you are doing just that.

[Tat2Freak]

One might surmise you are doing just that.

one would be wrong...

[k1ngp1n]

...i read it like it is...

Actually, no you don't. A direct, literal interpretation does not agree with your arguments. You are arguing from an implied point of view. If you want to discuss the logic of this, the thread would get very long and dry. I am happy to of course: my minors in philosophy and applied mathematics were directly because I have in interest in mathematically sound logical arguments. The lynch pin in your argument is in the scope of the term 'associated'. Utilizing a direct relationship, you are incorrect.

[Tat2Freak]

Actually, no you don't. A direct, literal interpretation does not agree with your arguments. You are arguing from an implied point of view. If you want to discuss the logic of this, the thread would get very long and dry. I am happy to of course: my minors in philosophy and applied mathematics were directly because I have in interest in mathematically sound logical arguments. The lynch pin in your argument is in the scope of the term 'associated'. Utilizing a direct relationship, you are incorrect.

You dont need logic...you need common sense, which you seem to be lacking. If you really and I mean REALLY think the devs want you farming(be it chests, scrolls, xp, WHATEVER) out of the quests, WITHOUT completing them...I SAY AGAIN...your an idiot. From Co6 Xp and Giants Caves Loot runs to present, they have discouraged, through fixes, farming...


But i got a great idea for them...just make anything in a quest temporary until completion...when the quest is completed you can take it out with you...