level 20 ranger asking a 18/1/1 ranger for fom?

[Hafeal]

I just think many a player have no idea that proof against poison items actually exist in the game ... and are inexpensive either on the AH or at the vendors.

[Hadrian]

What level is your ranger? What do you have instead? Do you have a wand so you can at least cure others? Or in a couple of years, have you never been a party with someone who needed a cure posion?

18 levels of ranger. I used to carry potions, but since no one ever needs me to use them, I stopped doing so a long time ago.

I find that the potion covers the need so well that it's basically a wasted spell slot to bring it. Anyone can carry potions. If there is a buff you feel you absolutely must have and can so easily provide it for yourself, that's your responsibility.

Whatever you do, don't tell someone they're a bad Ranger because you've somehow discovered a build that can't survive without someone else around to cast neutralize poison on it. That's just silly. :P

[vVAnjilaVv]

Me personally, sometimes I just forget to change back to really important spells when I go from solo to group play.......I can't tell you the amount of times I have joined a group after solo'ing a bit on my cleric.....someone dies in the quest.....and I get the most god-awful cringing feeling when I see on my screen......"spell not prepared" as I go to hit my Raise Dead hotkey.............I just almost feel like dropping the group and going anon for like 3 months.

[NaturalHazard]

Me personally, sometimes I just forget to change back to really important spells when I go from solo to group play.......I can't tell you the amount of times I have joined a group after solo'ing a bit on my cleric.....someone dies in the quest.....and I get the most god-awful cringing feeling when I see on my screen......"spell not prepared" as I go to hit my Raise Dead hotkey.............I just almost feel like dropping the group and going anon for like 3 months.

maybe pack a few scrolls just in case you ever do this again?

[Morlen]

I just think many a player have no idea that proof against poison items actually exist in the game ... and are inexpensive either on the AH or at the vendors.

It's not so much a lack of knowing they exist as it is they can be hard to spare a slot for. Unless they have crafted a GS "super-immuno" item then switching out for a Proof Against Poison item may require removing an important stat or DPS adding item.



I have also just had the realization that I have made many comments on Poison and not one on the spell which this thread was started about... And that Ranger not having Freedom of Movement memmed was just plain silly.

[TheDearLeader]

Amazing. Ranger = fail.

This is as fail as Paladins asking for a Fire Resist in... anywhere, actually.

For that matter, any spell on this list.

The ones that get me:

Level 2 : Resist Energy
Level 4 : Neutralize Poison, Death Ward, Restoration.

Why do I find a Paladin asking for these irksome? Well, capped Pallies have 4 Spells per Spell Level.

Resist Energy is the best second level spell. Other than that.. Angelskin? Bulls/Eagles/Owls are all silly, and I only have whichever 1 or 2 I have slotted so the game won't complain about unprepared spell slots.

For level 4, I have : Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Break Enchantment, and Zeal.
- Paladin asking for Restoration? Ridiculous. Unyielding Sovereignty. Every Paladin should have it, as its required for Tier II of PrEs. Sure.. you could technically have another faith path. But why? Also, Restoration Scrolls work just as well as the spell, while not using up a spell slot.
- Paladin asking for Neutralize Poison? Well, they have the spell available. If they choose something else like cure serious, that's their problem. Carry pots. If I don't have it loaded, I have pots. Most times I have pots anyway.
- But dude, what about Holy Sword? What about it? If you're the kind of Paladin who is using Holy Sword greatswords, khopeshes, mauls, w/e, its simple. When you log on:

1. Buy components in Feather Fall Apothecary.
2. Walk up to Drowning Sorrows Tavern. Change 1 4th level spell for Holy Sword.
3. Go into one of the two quests that are like, 10 feet from the door. Enter quest, cast spell. Get your swords.
4. Leave quest, return to Drowning Sorrows, switch back to original 4th level spell.
5. Go questing for the day.

My Pally has a Base 8 Wisdom +2 Tome +6 Colorless slot = 16 Wisdom. With my Shroud SP cloak (which is also my +6 Cha Skills item, yay UMD, yay Intimidate), I have over 600 SP. That's plenty enough for me to hand out Fire AND Electric Resist to everyone in EV6 (360 SP), and still have plenty of SP left over for quickened, extended Divine Favors and Zeal.

Yet still, there are Paladins in parties I run in that can't be trouble to cast their OWN resist energies. I find this behavior to also lead to other bad behaviors, like lack of hit points, DR Busters, Heavy Fort, poor listening skills, etc.

To buff or not buff a party is someone's choice.. I suppose. But to not buff one's self is idiocy. Sorry you had to deal with it.

[AylinIsAwesome]

For that matter, any spell on this list.

The ones that get me:

Level 2 : Resist Energy
Level 4 : Neutralize Poison, Death Ward, Restoration.

Why do I find a Paladin asking for these irksome? Well, capped Pallies have 4 Spells per Spell Level.

Paladin 18/Whatever 2

That means only 2 level 4 spells.

Zeal + Deathward/Restoration/Poison.

The poison you can pot.


So how are they supposed to fit in 3 spells into 2 slots?

[TheDearLeader]

Paladin 18/Whatever 2

That means only 2 level 4 spells.

Zeal + Deathward/Restoration/Poison.

The poison you can pot.


So how are they supposed to fit in 3 spells into 2 slots?

Okay, I'll bite.

Zeal + Death Ward for the 18/2 Multi.

Poison Pots/Proof against Poison Item
Restoration Scrolls/Still have Unyielding Sovereignty

Since its a Pally spell for levels after 14th, scrolling Restoration should not be a big issue, and it prevents one from ever having to use a spell slot on it.

Also, I expect less of multiclass builds as far as spellcasting is concerned. However, this thread is about a Pure-Class (ranger) asking a Multiclass (ranger) for a buff, which seems backward to mine eyes.

[jcTharin]

Noobsauce01: Are you going to give me poison?
Me: No.
Noobsauce01: Dude, you're a ranger.
Me: Dude, you're a warforged.

i MUST have this on my sig. may i?

[NaturalHazard]

Amazing. Ranger = fail.

This is as fail as Paladins asking for a Fire Resist in... anywhere, actually.

For that matter, any spell on this list.

The ones that get me:

Level 2 : Resist Energy
Level 4 : Neutralize Poison, Death Ward, Restoration.

Why do I find a Paladin asking for these irksome? Well, capped Pallies have 4 Spells per Spell Level.

Resist Energy is the best second level spell. Other than that.. Angelskin? Bulls/Eagles/Owls are all silly, and I only have whichever 1 or 2 I have slotted so the game won't complain about unprepared spell slots.

For level 4, I have : Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Break Enchantment, and Zeal.
- Paladin asking for Restoration? Ridiculous. Unyielding Sovereignty. Every Paladin should have it, as its required for Tier II of PrEs. Sure.. you could technically have another faith path. But why? Also, Restoration Scrolls work just as well as the spell, while not using up a spell slot.
- Paladin asking for Neutralize Poison? Well, they have the spell available. If they choose something else like cure serious, that's their problem. Carry pots. If I don't have it loaded, I have pots. Most times I have pots anyway.
- But dude, what about Holy Sword? What about it? If you're the kind of Paladin who is using Holy Sword greatswords, khopeshes, mauls, w/e, its simple. When you log on:

1. Buy components in Feather Fall Apothecary.
2. Walk up to Drowning Sorrows Tavern. Change 1 4th level spell for Holy Sword.
3. Go into one of the two quests that are like, 10 feet from the door. Enter quest, cast spell. Get your swords.
4. Leave quest, return to Drowning Sorrows, switch back to original 4th level spell.
5. Go questing for the day.

My Pally has a Base 8 Wisdom +2 Tome +6 Colorless slot = 16 Wisdom. With my Shroud SP cloak (which is also my +6 Cha Skills item, yay UMD, yay Intimidate), I have over 600 SP. That's plenty enough for me to hand out Fire AND Electric Resist to everyone in EV6 (360 SP), and still have plenty of SP left over for quickened, extended Divine Favors and Zeal.

Yet still, there are Paladins in parties I run in that can't be trouble to cast their OWN resist energies. I find this behavior to also lead to other bad behaviors, like lack of hit points, DR Busters, Heavy Fort, poor listening skills, etc.

To buff or not buff a party is someone's choice.. I suppose. But to not buff one's self is idiocy. Sorry you had to deal with it.

Ive actually come across level 17-20 paladins who did not know what loh was and did not know what smites where. seriously.

[smithtj3]

I blame the DDO community and the general inaccurate description of rangers for this one. Everyone dogs rangers so much that we have these rangers running around just taking everyone's word that their class is awful and brings nothing to the group. It's no wonder than that these rangers don't think any of their buffs are any good and worth bringing.

Then you have DDO talking up the summon animals, the snares, the burning bush, and camouflage like they are the TRUE ranger spells. New rangers get the impression that casting these spells is what makes a ranger a ranger. I don't know how many hours of experimentation I had to do to figure out that 90% of the ranger spells were worthless. Four of which are the summon animals. Snare? A CR .5 monster will have no issue busting right out of that. That devastating 1d4 shrub? Only if firewall has been cast on top of it but then purely for the biblical allusion. Camouflage? Every group loves that player who stays in sneak mode the whole time. Oh, how could I forget Merfolk's Blessing. If that's how merfolk bless people they can consider themselves defriended on Facebook.

I'm in the process of TR'ing my ranger right now and the experience has been eye opening. From what I have deduced I am the only ranger between the levels of 10 and 16 on Ghallanda that has barkskin loaded and doesn't use owl's wisdom and bear's endurance on himself. A monk actually said, and I quote, "You have no idea how much barkskin really helps". I wept quietly over voice chat for several minutes.

I have seen numerous level 20 pure ranger AA's that have less than four level four spells loaded probably because they simply don't see the point in bringing them, they assume the spell aren't any good because, from what they hear and read, nothing rangers have is any good. If you're a Half-Orc barbarian, hug a ranger today. Let them know you care.

[therobb]

I see this as part of a bigger problem that new players come from other games where they're not used to taking care of themselves in any way.

Just like the capped ranger I ran SoS with the other day. He kited things away and out of healing range so I couldn't heal him. He was at 25% health for a long time but apparently didn't think to drink a cure pot or wand whip himself so he ended up getting killed.

It's amusing that the ranger class is really versatile but so many players see them as one dimensional.

Melee? No.
Self-heal? No.
Buff? No. OK, maybe camouflage.
Shoot arrows and run away? YES!

[PNellesen]

New rangers get the impression that casting these spells is what makes a ranger a ranger. I don't know how many hours of experimentation I had to do to figure out that 90% of the ranger spells were worthless. Four of which are the summon animals. Snare? A CR .5 monster will have no issue busting right out of that. That devastating 1d4 shrub? Only if firewall has been cast on top of it but then purely for the biblical allusion. Camouflage? Every group loves that player who stays in sneak mode the whole time. Oh, how could I forget Merfolk's Blessing. If that's how merfolk bless people they can consider themselves defriended on Facebook.

This made me laugh out loud

A monk actually said, and I quote, "You have no idea how much barkskin really helps". I wept quietly over voice chat for several minutes.

I usually ask if anyone wants Barkskin first - almost everyone says "me plz!". Barkskin/Resists/FoM/Poison Immunity are the 4 I usually cast on other party members (with Ram's Might usually reserved for myself). When soloing, I'll throw Camo on because I like to sneak around rather than have the entire dungeon know I'm there, but that's the only time I use it.

[smithtj3]

I see this as part of a bigger problem that new players come from other games where they're not used to taking care of themselves in any way.

Just like the capped ranger I ran SoS with the other day. He kited things away and out of healing range so I couldn't heal him. He was at 25% health for a long time but apparently didn't think to drink a cure pot or wand whip himself so he ended up getting killed.

It's amusing that the ranger class is really versatile but so many players see them as one dimensional.

Melee? No.
Self-heal? No.
Buff? No. OK, maybe camouflage.
Shoot arrows and run away? YES!

Again, a lot of this is just because of feedback that says, "You're a wimpy gimp ranger". I've run with more PUGs than I care to think of where more than 50% of the group didn't know rangers could cast spells, use wands, had evasion, and didn't understood what many shot, improved critical: peircing, and improved precise shot meant. These are a good chunk of the rangers bread and butter and I've got fighters and barbarians trying to grabbing agro on swarms of fire elementals and running through traps just to pull a lever because they look at the rest of their group and see nothing but worthless squishies.

Example, I was in a group running a rough Chains of the Flame on elite and my SP and cure serious wands had long since been spent by this point in the dungeon and I have this conversation with two of the other players:

Player 1: "Can I get a fresh fire resist?"
Me: "Sorry dude, I am fresh out of SP"
Player 2: "Yo, I need a barkskin!"
Me: "Once again, I can't cast without SP. . . of which I currently have none"
Player 1: "We need to find a rest shrine, everyone is getting worn down."
Player 2: "Well, rangers have cure spells or something right?"
Me: "Yes, yes we do."

Now, If rangers didn't need SP to cast their spells, that would be B.A. Unfortunately, we still have to do things the old fashioned way. Granted the fire resistance would have been less of a problem had they just let me or the rogue take agro on fire elementals but again, they were convinced that as long as the cleric kept healing them there wasn't a trap or enemy they couldn't best. . . which I guess to a degree is true. Sort of like how I gamble, as long as I keeping throwing more and more of someone else's money into the game, I'll eventually come out ahead.

[hermespan]

in lower levels i get a little concerned witht the rangers who dont ever use bulls str or barkskin, i mean rams might.

Some people take 6 levels of ranger for Tempest I and free twf feats, and wisdom is a dump stat for their build since spells cast at level 6 ranger are useless at cap, outside of ram's might, which they'll have at cap anyway since their +6 wisdom item will get them to the minimum needed to cast spells.

For an end game target of Tempest I/Assassin II or kensei II or FB II or [whatever], no matter how you slice it, wisdom is a hair more important than a dump stat. That means no casting on this build til you get a high enough wisdom item to hit the threshold for casting. You put the extra points into STR and CON as well as INT for traps, search and Assassin PrE for a ranger/rogue dps build (as an example).

One of my pet peeves is people that think they know everything and try to tell you you are doing it wrong when they don't understand the build goals or the fact that I'll out DPS them in end game 2:1 or better. Unless you care to ask about the goals, dps and intent of the build, don't talk to anyone about their character because you don't know anything about where they are going with their end game build, therefore aren't qualified to comment on it or their lack of casting ability at low level.

That barkskin and bulls str cast at ranger level 6 is utterly useless at cap. Why do I care if I don't have it at level 7? Why do you care? All I want out of ranger casting is ram's might and I'll have that when I'm done. My dps is still better than most characters without it at that level. I'll have ITWF and OTWF, and khopesh feat by then.

If you don't first bother to ask about someone's end game build goals and what they are doing, you are wrong before you open your mouth to criticize them.

Someone's class icon says very little about where their build is going to be in end game, especially below level 12.

Of course you wouldn't know this. I can tell since you said what you said. It's ok, forums are here for us to learn something.

Ranger is a very good class to splash a PrE with. To most of us who multiclass, that's all we care about is the PrE, TWF feats, and ram's might, maybe evasion if it's a ranger/fighter, so there's a REALLY good chance that someone with 6 levels of ranger, mixed with fighter, barb, rogue or something else, won't be able to cast at levels 1-8 (for example). The casting ability is the least attractive part of ranger for a 6 level splash, so it's not a priority, though having ram's might in end game should be a goal of any tempest I build. +2 str that stacks with everything is not something you should pass up.

DDO (Indeed D&D) is a very complicated game, especially when it comes to multiclass builds. Very little is cut and dried. You will learn that most assumptions you make when you are starting out, _especially_ with regard to class descriptions, roles, etc, end up being proven wrong. Keep an open mind and ask questions.

Feel free to criticize when you have a thorough understanding of my build and why I made the choices I did. Til then, ask questions ;-)

[smithtj3]

When soloing, I'll throw Camo on because I like to sneak around rather than have the entire dungeon know I'm there, but that's the only time I use it.

Camo is the spell that says, "Get used to playing alone". Mass camo is the spell that says, "I want all of you to be just as miserable". At least that's what I tell everyone when I cast it. Unfortunately for DDO, rangers aren't one to pick up on subtlety.

[aristarchus1000]

Neut Poison was more important back when Mass Heal was buggy and couldn't be used reliably in a Raid. On my favored soul, I tell them that I'll be using plenty of Mass Heals so they don't need to worry about it.

I also gently suggest that I use pots (and I'm a healer!) if I want poison immunity. I avoid the "you should" just because it comes off easier. I explain that Favored Souls only have 4 level 4 slots, and that they can't be swapped at shrines, and there are easily 4 more important spells that cannot be replaced with a simple pot.

It's not worth going into a whole lot of rage about it, it's just Shroud after all.

That said, I agree with everything said. There is nothing wrong with asking, but they shouldn't go into total rage if it is not available. If they die because they don't have poison immunity, they probably aren't important enough to be necessary to finish the raid anyway. :P

That, and, nothing teaches better than a death or five.

[PNellesen]

Camo is the spell that says, "Get used to playing alone". Mass camo is the spell that says, "I want all of you to be just as miserable". At least that's what I tell everyone when I cast it. Unfortunately for DDO, rangers aren't one to pick up on subtlety.

I have to admit I was guilty of casting Mass Camo when I first got it and didn't really understand what it did (and didn't) do. After being "gently" persuaded to rethink my strategy and to "RTFWiki, noob!", I no longer have that one memorized

[Talon_Moonshadow]

When was the lat time a plumber came to your house and asked you to borrow your pipe wrench. Or the cable installer asked you for a screwdriver. Or a salesman ask you if he could borrow a pen?

Professionals bring the tols they will need for a job. They do not show up expecting others to supply what they need for them.



That same salesman will however gladly loan you his pen. And many times might even tell you to keep it.

Professionals gladly help others however they can. Take pride from their ability to help others out in fact. Some even show off from it to gain more prestige.


Some classes in DDO though are really difficult to make self buffing. Some buffs cannot effectively be bought as a potion. Many times there is no substitute for a caster buff of some sort being cast on your friendly Barbarian.

But even if I was playing a Barbarian, I would not ask for a buff. It seems too much like begging.
I may mention that a certain buff would really make this quest easier. I may fess up when someone asks who needs something. (note: they offer first.)

But I also know that not everyone has the same experiance and knowlege of quests and what is needed.......even the Shroud. As often as it is run. Is actually very misunderstood by the majority of players.

So sometimes, ya just gotts go easy on them. They just don't know any better.

[smithtj3]

But even if I was playing a Barbarian, I would not ask for a buff. It seems too much like begging. I may mention that a certain buff would really make this quest easier. I may fess up when someone asks who needs something. (note: they offer first.)

I throw every buff I have on those barbarians and fighters, that way when I'm kiting mobs all over the place they'll hold their tongues a few more seconds before cursing my existence. It's a symbiotic relationship really, the heavy hitters need the buffs and the squishies need heavy hitters to beat the scary monsters to death while we run in a panic around the dungeon.