"Defiance - 13 wizard/6 monk/ 1 fighter."

[Phidius]

...
I'm going to TR again from wizard and im going to revert back to this same build. Except this time im going to have +6 to spell pen just from past life feats.

I'm going to get the wizard spell pen enhancements
thats +3

and im going to get the 2 spell penetration feats
for a total of +4

That means i'm going to have +13 to my spell pen as a lv 12 wizard/6 monk/ 2fighter. Just from past live, feats, and enhancements. WIll this make a notable difference?
...

I had originally planned on TR'ing my 12 wiz/6 ranger/2 monk 3 times for the free +6 Spell Pen simply for the ability to throw Waves of Exhaustion from a scroll.

13 (scroll caster level) + 6 (past life) + 3 (enhancements) + 4 (feats) + 3 (Greater Spell Pen VIII) + 1 (guild buff) + 6 (Impr. Shattermantle) = 36 + d20

While Waves is still a good debuff, I don't think it's worth the additional TR. Remember, anything worth grinding is worth nerfing.

[k1ngp1n]

Remember, anything worth grinding is worth nerfing.

Indeed it is.

[Phidius]

... Do things like no save scorching ray with combust/lore item and fire enhancements end up being useful at higher levels?...

There's no save for Wall of Fire either. I'm running a more melee DPS focused variant of this build and the only two damage spells I have loaded at this time are Scorching Ray and Wall of Fire. Everything else is a buff. I'm currently level 17 (Wiz9/Mon8)

The only spells that should be avoided are the ones that have no affect from spell resistance or mobs making their save. Like Hold Monster, PK, Symbol of [Whatever], Ooze Puppet, Charm/Dominate/Suggestion, etc...

Cloudkill and Sleetstorm are handy defensive clouds.

Cone of Cold/Ball Lightning/Cyclonic Blast is very useful when mobbed by non-evasive types. Half damage is still really good when you're surrounded in Red Alert.

The thing about these types of builds, though, is that if you're getting more damage from casting a spell than from your melee, you're doing something wrong.

[gurgar78]

The only spells that should be avoided are the ones that have no affect from spell resistance or mobs making their save. Like Hold Monster, PK, Symbol of [Whatever], Ooze Puppet, Charm/Dominate/Suggestion, etc...

Cloudkill and Sleetstorm are handy defensive clouds.

Cone of Cold/Ball Lightning/Cyclonic Blast is very useful when mobbed by non-evasive types. Half damage is still really good when you're surrounded in Red Alert.

The thing about these types of builds, though, is that if you're getting more damage from casting a spell than from your melee, you're doing something wrong.

Well, I guess maybe that last line is a better way of putting it. I concentrate primarily on buffs and only have a very limited selection of damage spells because I do considerably more damage with melee attacks.

I do have Cloudkill as a level 5 spell as well, so you got me there. I did leave it out, although I consider that more a buff than a damage spell. I certainly don't have it in my lineup for the damage it does.

[IronClan]

exactly the kind of discussion I was interested in thanks guys.

[gurgar78]

Also wanted to add that I have Gust of Wind prepped as well so that I can clear enemy clouds/firewalls.

[Phidius]

Also wanted to add that I have Gust of Wind prepped as well so that I can clear enemy clouds/firewalls.

I'm going to swap "Cone of Cold" for "Cyclonic Blast" for this effect once Update8 upgrades Ice Storm.

With 11 levels of Wizard:

Level 1 Spells: Nightshield, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Magic Missle, Grease
Level 2 Spells: Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Blur, Invisibility, Knock
Level 3 Spells: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Repair Serious, Sleet Storm
Level 4 Spells: Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Fire Shield
Level 5 Spells: Cloudkill, Protection from Elements, Cyclonic Blast
Level 6 Spells: Reconstruct, Greater Heroism

[gurgar78]

I'm going to swap "Cone of Cold" for "Cyclonic Blast" for this effect once Update8 upgrades Ice Storm.

With 11 levels of Wizard:

Level 1 Spells: Nightshield, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Magic Missle, Grease
Level 2 Spells: Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Blur, Invisibility, Knock
Level 3 Spells: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Repair Serious, Sleet Storm
Level 4 Spells: Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Fire Shield
Level 5 Spells: Cloudkill, Protection from Elements, Cyclonic Blast
Level 6 Spells: Reconstruct, Greater Heroism

With 12 levels of Wizard:

Level 1 Spells: Nightshield, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Feather Fall
Level 2 Spells: Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Blur, Invisibility, Gust of Wind
Level 3 Spells: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Magic Circle Against Evil, Chain Missiles
Level 4 Spells: Death Aura, Wall of Fire/IceStorm, Neg Energy Burst, Fire Shield
Level 5 Spells: Cloudkill, Protection from Elements, Teleport, whatever (Waves of Fatigue, maybe)
Level 6 Spells: Greater Hero, True Seeing, Tenser's Transformation

[gurgar78]

Btw, I know Tenser's currently sucks. Mostly this is wishful thinking that in the spell pass they might make it worthwhile instead of a Level 6 Arcane spell being decidedly inferior to a Level 3 Divine spell.

Easiest way to fix Tenser's is to make the stat bonuses the same "Type" as the lichform stat bonus. This way you can't stack Tenser's/Lich for +8 con, but if both were active, you'd have +4 str, +4 dex, +4 con, +2 wis, +2 cha, +2 int.

With the stat bonuses from Tenser's currently not stacking with gear, they become completely worthless.