Dear Rogues

[Astraghal]

I play a fighter and I think rogues are totally awesome.

I can't count the number of times I've been in shavarath quests with wily rogues who have completely slaughtered more than their fair share of mobs.

I have no idea why so many people think rogues are gimp.

Rogues are one of the most deadly melee classes and I'm always happy to have one in my group.

If I were to roll another toon, it would be a rogue.

[Gnorbert]

Forum rep getting a little low? :P

On topic, I completely agree with you. As a fighter in a party with a rogue my favorite way to double my contribution is to make sure I'm mashing Intim while swinging away. A rogue getting sneak attack constantly is a happy rogue... and quick quest completion.

[dkyle]

Indeed. I've always found the "Shroud, need DPS, Barb or Fighter only" puzzling. Take a party with 8 good STR Rogues, and I'm quite sure they'll out DPS a party with 8 similarly-geared Barbarians.

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

[TitoJ]

Hating on a player based on class alone is always the dumbest thing. As DDO is a video game...the advantage will always go to the gamer...regardless of class, group make up, or gear.

I love any class played by a good player.

[hityawithastick]

I don't always play melee classes...but when I do...I prefer rogues.

Stay thirsty my friends.

[TitoJ]

I don't always play melee classes...but when I do...I prefer rogues.

Stay thirsty my friends.

Well done!

[Qezuzu]

Indeed. I've always found the "Shroud, need DPS, Barb or Fighter only" puzzling. Take a party with 8 good STR Rogues, and I'm quite sure they'll out DPS a party with 8 similarly-geared Barbarians.

Yes. Any leader who thinks Rogues aren't DPS is leader who hasn't lead many Raids, or just hasn't encountered enough good rogues.

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

Oh god yes. There are so many junk rogues running around Orien that my TRed rogue has too hard a time getting into PUGs.

[Malithar45]

Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

Had this yesterday in Shroud. He had 0 kills and an additional death besides p4-5 transition. Want some karma? He doubled pulled scales, +2 Str Tome in p3, and a Shard of Power.

I had to take a break after the run. :'(

[Draccus]

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

That's the problem, right there.

In the last year, the number of horribly built, horribly geared, and horribly played rogues has increased exponentially.

For most of us Vets, running a Shroud or ToD with 9 guildies and 2 puggers, it doesn't matter if the two puggers are the worst players in the game -- we're going to succeed and we're going to do it fast. Heck, I ran a shroud with 5 Bards, 3 Arcanes, and 2 healers and we finished in 25 minutes.

But for 100% pugged groups where most of the characters are 28pt builds and have very limited gear, a 180hp rogue dual wielding Treasons is a liability.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

.

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

/this, 100%.

Str is bad enough dumpstat for casters, let alone rogues, and con is dump for no one. There are many ways to play the game, but not being able to bravely run away while being beaten on isn't one of them. One-shot-wonders= -10% xp and bad times. (Course, barbarians who have the faceplant feat (find traps with face, land on said face) also = -!0%. I know, since as soon as i jumped from my rogue to my new HOrc barb, i started zerging ahead and almost dying)

[EustaceTrevelyan]

.

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

/this, 100%.

Str is bad enough dumpstat for casters, let alone rogues, and con is dump for no one. There are many ways to play the game, but not being able to bravely run away while being beaten on isn't one of them. One-shot-wonders= -10% xp and bad times. (Course, barbarians who have the faceplant feat (find traps with face, land on said face also = -!0%.) I know, since as soon as i jumped from my rogue to my new HOrc barb, i started zerging ahead and almost dying

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Indeed. I've always found the "Shroud, need DPS, Barb or Fighter only" puzzling. Take a party with 8 good STR Rogues, and I'm quite sure they'll out DPS a party with 8 similarly-geared Barbarians.

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

I'm not saying Str Rogues aren't good. (or do more DPS(

But when my Rog19 regularly sees +70ish numbers on my screen....that first number just seems kinda trivial to me.






Oh, and about the Con thing. While I do think that you need a whole bunch of HP to stand next to an angry Pit Fiend, another arguement I have about people who complain about squishy Rogues is: in most quests, the Rogue shouldn't be getting hit anyway!

Seriously, if you do all this awesome SA damage.......which requires you not to have agro.... Why are you getting hit?! By getting agro, you are gimping your DPS.

A Rogue should never ever get agro! You shoud be learning to get SA damage "ALL" (most) of the time. And when yo ulearn how to do that correctly, you will also stop getting beat up all the time.

Don't misunderstand me. HP are good. There are many ties when there is no substitute. (the afore mentioned Pit Fiend)

But people should stop blaming a lack of HP for Rogues dying all the time. And start blaming the lack of tactics the Rogue is using.
Cause any Rogue who is getting beat up, has agro. And any Rogue who has agro is not getting SA damage.



(of course I seem to be naive to the fact that the only quests anyone runs, cares about, talks about...etc. are raids.... where it just might be true that there is a problem with squishy Rogues dying all the time...)

[Scherwiz2]

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

That's one of the reasons why I decided to make a Rogue. I encountered far too many while leveling up with other classes that were absolutely horrible with no DPS, no survivability, no ability to disarm traps, and simply played poorly. Thus, I vowed to be one of the good Rogues. I'm glad that I decided to focus on a Rogue since I love the class and regularly get compliments from random players. However, there is definitely an anti-Rogue sentiment in the high levels which can make it tricky to get into groups sometimes.

[dkyle]

I'm not saying Str Rogues aren't good. (or do more DPS(

But when my Rog19 regularly sees +70ish numbers on my screen....that first number just seems kinda trivial to me.

But you could be seeing 45ish first numbers, with 155ish crits every 5 hits. That's hardly trivialized by a 70ish number. If my Bard can muster that (and that's basic, non-madstoned, no-short-buffs, no consumables, damage), so can a Rogue.

Oh, and about the Con thing. While I do think that you need a whole bunch of HP to stand next to an angry Pit Fiend, another arguement I have about people who complain about squishy Rogues is: in most quests, the Rogue shouldn't be getting hit anyway!

In most quests? Sure. At endgame? No way. Everything cleaves. 1s can be rolled on saves, disintegrates and horrid wiltings can't be evaded. At a certain point, no amount of tactics can save you, other than run away and not contribute.

At lower levels, yes, a rogue can avoid getting hit. But at lower levels, mobs tend to not live long when a "tank" DPS is attacking them. By the time the rogue jumps in, it's dead. Frankly, at low level, a rogue loses more DPS waiting to attack, trying to get SA, than if they just play like a Fighter or Barb, taking the mobs head on. Sometimes you'll get SA playing that way, sometimes you won't. This is part of why I prefer STR Rogues.

(of course I seem to be naive to the fact that the only quests anyone runs, cares about, talks about...etc. are raids.... where it just might be true that there is a problem with squishy Rogues dying all the time...)

Not so much "only runs", but I'll put it this way: I've been playing only about a year. I solo most of my way to 20. Low-/mid-level Quests are not the high-water mark to build towards. Raids are. They are the main challenge in this game, and if you're going to build towards being able to contribute somewhere, those are the things to shoot for. And these are the places we actually care about how effective others' characters are.

A gimp in a low-/mid- level quest means I give a backpack ride. Enough gimps in a raid, and at best the healers had to consume some extra mana pots to sustain healing during the extra time due to suboptimal DPS. At worst, I've wasted half-hour on a wiped raid, say when all the CON-dumpers are dead and I'm not in a position to 4-man Harry in part 4.

The only people who should really care how they perform at low-/mid- level quests, enough to build towards them at the expense of end-game effectiveness, are permadeathers. For them, a max DEX, CON-dumping rogue could actually make some sense.

[Lavek]

getting the - we already have a rogue - when ppl ask for dps is pretty annoying

[Zachski]

Even as low as level 6, it's easy to see how good Rogues are at damage.

On my level 6 Warchanter, I duo'd with a Rogue from my guild once. I rushed in, got aggro, he rushed in, and killed the enemy quicker than you can say "Sneak Attacked"

[knobaroo]

I think there is a trap here that a lot of new players fall in.
Starting a rogue as a new player, I was under the impression that if I could not get all traps I was gimped. Then at about lvl 16, I'm told that traps really don't matter.
So now, I'm built gimped. Might have put feats and skill points not to the best of uses. Enhancements can be changed, but stats are set in stone.
So instead of dps machine, He is just kinda "meh"
And I also make a great squishy noise, when that ogre gets a hold of me, because I missed 1-2 toughness feats, not because I dumped Con:
I start as a trap monkey, then try to convert to a Dps Le'machine.
Bad players telling other players there toon is gimped.
I just remember as a new player there was so much to learn, and it was a little overwhelming, that you just take any advice offered, good and bad.
Now I gimp them on purpose by becoming an acrobat

[grodon9999]

I think there is a trap here that a lot of new players fall in.
Starting a rogue as a new player, I was under the impression that if I could not get all traps I was gimped. Then at about lvl 16, I'm told that traps really don't matter.
So now, I'm built gimped . . .

I don't get that at all. With ONE level of rogue my current ranger TR is getting every trap she sees, at level on Elite. I've spent some APs boosting stuff which I will change when she can use her better gear but she's only got 1 rogue level.

How can a pure DPS-rogue NOT be able to still nail every trap in the game?

Traps are still important if you do quests above normal and/or want the XP bonuses.

[Lifeblood]

A Rogue should never ever get agro! You shoud be learning to get SA damage "ALL" (most) of the time. And when yo ulearn how to do that correctly, you will also stop getting beat up all the time.


(

that is much easier to say than actually do..My rogue constantly pulls agro its about learning how to manage the agro ..RadII and A high Diplo helps a lot

and as others have said many times Con is not a dump stat

[hooblaboo]

Problem is, there are too many gimpy "STR and CON are dumpstats" rogues. Gives the good ones a bad name. Same with "I never put my bow away" rangers.

THIS!!! OMG, I just had the worst Pug(Proof is in the Poison Elite, party of lvl 6's yea not so high level) i had one 6 con "trapmonkey"(44 hp), two rangers who used bows and kited everything... Oh and a cleric who left in the first few seconds with the party setup... Was funny watching the rogue getting two shotted by casters.