HORC-TR from Shade's 2HF Dwarf - Feedback suggested

[stoolcannon]

I'm going to TR my dwarf pretty soon and I'm strongly considering a horc incarnation. I've tried to leverage the Horc enhancements to max out my damage output as much as possible and I'd appreciate your thoughts on the build/enhancements.

My only concern is the hitpoints. This is a pretty feat starved build so selecting stunning blow instead of toughness is going to leave my current HP around 600 fully raged (Don't have madstones and I assume those add con) or 650-700 when I'm wearing my choker.

Potential gains:
Orc Power Attack +6 (?) additional damage per swing+crit modifiers
Addtl strength, the +2 from my TR and the +2 from Orc enhancements puts me at 36 standing with just a +6 item. This "should" make up for the loss of tactics enhancements for stunning blow

Potential Drawbacks:
Extremely DPS focused, potentially to a fault
No Spell Defense Enhancements
No toughness enhancements

Current Gear:
Scourge Choker
Min II GA
Lit II GA
DT Robe Exc Str +1, Melodic Guard, Resistance +5 (primary)
Breastplate of Destruction (secondary)
Elemental Breastplate (situational if I run out of pots)
Cloak of Nightmares Lvl 12
Tumbleweed
Levik's Bracers
Tharne's Goggles
Bloodstone
Draconic Necklace
Lorinthor's Belt
Minos Legens

Final questions:
Do you recommend I complete my 20 shrouds first before I TR? What about the other majors, vod, hound, reavers etc?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Dingalbarian 
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc Male
(20 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 370
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 8
Will: 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             20                 27                   30
Dexterity            12                 14                   14
Constitution         16                 18                   20
Intelligence          8                 10                   10
Wisdom               10                 12                   12
Charisma              6                  8                    8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 4
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               2                 13                   13
Bluff                -2                 -1                   -1
Concentration         3                  5                    5
Diplomacy            -2                 -1                   -1
Disable Device       n/a                n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                  0                    0
Heal                  0                  1                    1
Hide                  1                  2                    2
Intimidate           -2                 22                   22
Jump                  9                 33                   33
Listen                0                  1                    1
Move Silently         1                  2                    2
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                  0                    0
Search               -1                  0                    0
Spot                  2                  6                    6
Swim                  5                 10                   10
Tumble                2                  3                    3
Use Magic Device     n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Orc Orc Blood
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Damage Reduction
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense


Level 4 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)


Level 5 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)


Level 8 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)


Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Rage


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)


Level 14 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Indomitable Will


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)


Level 17 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 19 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower I
Enhancement: Barbarian Might
Enhancement: Orcish Fury I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Power Rage I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

[stoolcannon]

lol! Feedback REQUESTED, not suggested.

[DragonMageT]

Yes, if you are near < 5 to 20 on raids.

Why only 16 con ? increase it 18.

Maybe consider splashing 2 levels of fighter for extra feats.

[BlackSteel]

I'd finish out your 20 raid completions IF you're close to doing so. no reason not to have shot at +3 tomes.

madstone boots add up to 8 Con

the barb PL feat will add 5 to ur base and +4 con when raging (both numbers are buggy)

this is in addition to the 10 HP from the free passive

on a barbarian of similar builds the Horc is only down 40 HP compared to the dwarf/WF. This only takes into account if you didnt spend way too many AP into the toughness enhancements. More than 2 ranks is a poor AP return for most builds.

you're missing quite a bit of other gear, which doesnt necessarily inhibit you from TR'ing, but of course the -40 HP may seem detrimental when you're on the lower end of barbarian HP. other items can boost it considerably and then losing 40 HP becomes trivial.

looking at ur list you may want to craft a GS accessory for HP, run some tower of despairs for rings and matching belts/necklaces, and possibly start knocking back some epic dragons for SoS ingriedients or a shot at +4 tomes

scourge choker is normally a bad decision to use on a melee, but if you like it thats your business.

and yes, the 6 higher str of the half orc more than makes up for the lack of a tactics line. unless you happen to be a monk with wisdom based DC's

[stoolcannon]

scourge choker is normally a bad decision to use on a melee, but if you like it thats your business.

I only wear it when I'm hate tanking something that hits me constantly i.e. Sully.

Thanks for the other advice. I won't be TRing until I've run ToD a few times. I don't have boots yet (been grinding FOREVER and can't get an effing artifact of all things).

On a side note, I've never run ToD and I know it's been said you can get away with a worldshaper sometimes but I haven't wanted to risk looking like a ****** and fouling a run if it didn't work.

[Quikster]

I only wear it when I'm hate tanking something that hits me constantly i.e. Sully.

Thanks for the other advice. I won't be TRing until I've run ToD a few times. I don't have boots yet (been grinding FOREVER and can't get an effing artifact of all things).

On a side note, I've never run ToD and I know it's been said you can get away with a worldshaper sometimes but I haven't wanted to risk looking like a ****** and fouling a run if it didn't work.

The choker lowers your dps, its not worth using if youre trying to do damage.

If youre going to run tod much, id get a set of boots.

[DragonMageT]

Oh, guess I should have paid more attention to your gear list.

Blacksteel is correct, these are a must have.

You want a GS HP Item dual shard with guard (your choice, hint: Lit2 or Disintegrate)
Madstone boots
and 2 ToD sets Barb set and Shinato set (will take many runs of TOD to get both)

FYI. I have already started my TR Horc Barb and I have already splashed 2 levels of fighter for the extra feats.
Barb Past Life and IC were a must for my build. I end up with PA, Cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Barb PL, IC, Toughness, undecided on last one either stunning blow or another toughness.

[stoolcannon]

The choker lowers your dps, its not worth using if youre trying to do damage.

If youre going to run tod much, id get a set of boots.

Doesn't lower your DPS if it's firing off all the time. I think the entire time I hate tanked Sully I only got exhausted once. Bad timing of course cause I was chained too

Again though, I NEVER put it on unless I'm literally getting beat to hell 100% of the time. It doesn't fire often enough to be worth it otherwise.

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

I only wear it when I'm hate tanking something that hits me constantly i.e. Sully.

Thanks for the other advice. I won't be TRing until I've run ToD a few times. I don't have boots yet (been grinding FOREVER and can't get an effing artifact of all things).

On a side note, I've never run ToD and I know it's been said you can get away with a worldshaper sometimes but I haven't wanted to risk looking like a ****** and fouling a run if it didn't work.

Hmm have you been running Wraith of Flame? I personally have 4 to 1 drop rates on other ingredients, getting the artifacts from that quest vs. ingredients drop rate from any of the other shavrath quests.

I would also agree to get your 20th completions done to get any missing gear or chance at tomes.

[Quikster]

Doesn't lower your DPS if it's firing off all the time. I think the entire time I hate tanked Sully I only got exhausted once. Bad timing of course cause I was chained too

Again though, I NEVER put it on unless I'm literally getting beat to hell 100% of the time. It doesn't fire often enough to be worth it otherwise.

Extensive testing has been done by many of us. It lowers your dps. Dont believe me fine, go ahead and use it. Dont be surprised when someone pulls agro thats not using it.

[DragonMageT]

extensive Testing Has Been Done By Many Of Us. It Lowers Your Dps. Dont Believe Me Fine, Go Ahead And Use It. Dont Be Surprised When Someone Pulls Agro Thats Not Using It.

Qft

[stoolcannon]

Extensive testing has been done by many of us. It lowers your dps. Dont believe me fine, go ahead and use it. Dont be surprised when someone pulls agro thats not using it.

How could it possibly lower my DPS if I'm not exhausted? I'm not arguing, I just want to know how.

I've used it extensively to test it myself based on what I've read here and I 100% agree it sucks in most situations. I used it in areas where I would kill a mob and things would be fine but by the time I was at the next mob I had already become exhausted.

But I've also used it while soloing gigantic mobs or hate tanking and getting hit constantly and it virtually always fires off and I never get exhausted.

So why in the latter situtation would it lower DPS? My str is increased by a large margin, as well as my to-hit bonus and damage output (technically).

So is there a hidden debuff somewhere I'm missing?

So I'm all ears (eyes) and definitely want to hear the explanation. But if it's anecdotal and "it sucks because I say so" I'd like at least something a little better than that. My experience last night was that while hating sully my con and HP went up a lot giving me some significant cushion to deal with the over 40 curses I received and my str stayed above normal the entire time except for the single time I got exhausted.

Matter of fact, this was my second time hate tanking him in the past 4 days an last night's went even better than the one before it when I wasn't using the choker.

[Quikster]

How could it possibly lower my DPS if I'm not exhausted? I'm not arguing, I just want to know how.

I've used it extensively to test it myself based on what I've read here and I 100% agree it sucks in most situations. I used it in areas where I would kill a mob and things would be fine but by the time I was at the next mob I had already become exhausted.

But I've also used it while soloing gigantic mobs or hate tanking and getting hit constantly and it virtually always fires off and I never get exhausted.

So why in the latter situtation would it lower DPS? My str is increased by a large margin, as well as my to-hit bonus and damage output (technically).

So is there a hidden debuff somewhere I'm missing?

So I'm all ears (eyes) and definitely want to hear the explanation. But if it's anecdotal and "it sucks because I say so" I'd like at least something a little better than that. My experience last night was that while hating sully my con and HP went up a lot giving me some significant cushion to deal with the over 40 curses I received and my str stayed above normal the entire time except for the single time I got exhausted.

Matter of fact, this was my second time hate tanking him in the past 4 days an last night's went even better than the one before it when I wasn't using the choker.

Because he doesnt attack every 4 seconds so youre guaranteed a debuff. So either youre missing it or your lying or there are other circumstances youre not telling us.

[stoolcannon]

Because he doesnt attack every 4 seconds so youre guaranteed a debuff. So either youre missing it or your lying or there are other circumstances youre not telling us.

Wow, jump straight to calling me a liar. Classy.

[Quikster]

Wow, jump straight to calling me a liar. Classy.

Wow defensive a bit? You jumped straight to being called a liar. I gave you all the possibilities, you can decide which one fits. I didnt call you anything.

[stoolcannon]

Wow defensive a bit? You jumped straight to being called a liar. I gave you all the possibilities, you can decide which one fits. I didnt call you anything.

You suggested either I'm wrong or a liar. Since you obviously have no social etiquitte or tact let me explain to you how human interaction works:

Scenario:

You think I'm missing something or may be incorrect about something and want to get that point across.

Possible paths of action:

1. Suggest I'm either missing it or a liar
2. Suggest that perhaps I'm missing something and ask for clarification i.e. "I'm pretty sure that's not possible due to his attack rate. Are you certain you only got exhausted once?"

If you chose #1 you need to polish your social skills. I told you I was all ears and described my personal experience and genuinely wanted to hear what I was missing. What I didn't want to hear was that I'm either missing it or a liar.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you're wrong? I only vorpal on a 20 and there are times I can't roll a 20 to save my life and other times where I'll roll them constantly for a long period. I may have just had good luck with the choker last night firing off consistently which would in turn skew my perspective.

[stoolcannon]

And I may very well have missed some exhaustions during the fray, however I was trying to be very diligent in watching for them because I wanted to see if the choker worked well so I don't think I did. But I've been wrong before, many times.

[Quikster]

You suggested either I'm wrong or a liar. Since you obviously have no social etiquitte or tact let me explain to you how human interaction works:

Scenario:

You think I'm missing something or may be incorrect about something and want to get that point across.

Possible paths of action:

1. Suggest I'm either missing it or a liar
2. Suggest that perhaps I'm missing something and ask for clarification i.e. "I'm pretty sure that's not possible due to his attack rate. Are you certain you only got exhausted once?"

If you chose #1 you need to polish your social skills. I told you I was all ears and described my personal experience and genuinely wanted to hear what I was missing. What I didn't want to hear was that I'm either missing it or a liar.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you're wrong? I only vorpal on a 20 and there are times I can't roll a 20 to save my life and other times where I'll roll them constantly for a long period. I may have just had good luck with the choker last night firing off consistently which would in turn skew my perspective.

I dont need an explanation in social interaction. If you want sugar coating go pay for a service. I stated points precisely and to the point. Sorry if I didnt sugar coat them enough for you, but the fact remains, the choker will not proc enough in that raid to increase your dps enough.

If you dont believe me, continue to use it, a few others do, but for the most part high end barbs leave that item in their bank or inventory.

[ddobard1]

Without the feat Toughness you lose 82 HP > 10% your total health.

So you get +10 damage, +6% Weapon Special Effects on glancing blows, and +4 Strength than Shade. And you get -142 HP than Shade.

I would consider to put skill points in Listen to detect the Foes earlier.

I prefer Thoughness over Stunning Blow for this build, 82 HP matter! You could take Orcish Power Rage II for maximum DPS, and drop Extended Rage IV. many threads say that 20 Barbarian has enough Rages.

It's a classical Barbarian build. For gear read the threads in this forum, like this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=281363.

[stoolcannon]

I dont need an explanation in social interaction. If you want sugar coating go pay for a service. I stated points precisely and to the point. Sorry if I didnt sugar coat them enough for you, but the fact remains, the choker will not proc enough in that raid to increase your dps enough.

If you dont believe me, continue to use it, a few others do, but for the most part high end barbs leave that item in their bank or inventory.

Let me take off the sugar coating on my words lest you think I'm some politically correct left winger. If you talked to me like that in person and suggested I was a liar I'd slap you in your face. I won't be talked to like that, never have, never will. This is the internet though so fire away, everyone's safe behind their firewall.

I treat people with respect because I demand respect in return. It's the reason I treat new people nicely and don't call people noobs or idiots when they make mistakes and the same reason I say excuse me, please and thank you more than any other phrases in the English language.

My wife doesn't even like to go into public with me anymore because I get so angry at all the effing discourtesy in our entitled society. I have no idea what happened to parents teaching their children to hold the door, say yes sir or yes ma'am and most importantly of all please and thank you.

/rant off

On to the discussion at hand:

I appreciate your advice which is why I am here. I don't know everything and freely admit I'm still relatively new to the game. My experience last night was that I only got exhausted once and that the choker benefitted me.

Could I have missed something? Absolutely. Especially considering how hard it is to actually see anything from where you back into the corner. It's hard to even see my curse indicator.

As for believing you, I do believe you. Most especially if you have more than one experience (or hopefully many) in similar situations to me hate-tanking VOD with it. I've got one experience and while it was positive it could have just been a 20 min string of fantastic dice rolls which while rare is not unheard of.

From my one experience, I held his aggro more easily than the first time I did it and the cushion in extra HP was a nice boon considering the number of times I was cursed. I personally used more than 25 curse pots + whatever the healers threw at me so keeping me up was benefitted by the extra HP.

That said, I appreciate your advice and while I may test the choker out a few more times I'll definitely try to watch more closely to see if the exhaustion is hitting.