Why all the expense on Spell Singer II?

[Aashrym]

First off, don't try to be as effective as a pure caster. That's just never gona happen...Bards are a Hybrid class and expecting them to out do a pure casting class, especially a Wizard which has 5 extra feats built into it is just plain ignorant.

As for having to take Spell Focus, Spell Pen, and Quicken. Really? It sounds to me like you want your Bard to cast as well as a full caster while dishing it out in Mêlée like a pure Fighter. Sounds greedy to me. If you focus on CC/Healing the party has extra healing, increased DPS from your Song and increased DPS from the Wiz/Sorc who's able to dish out more Disintegrates, Scorching Rays, Cone of Colds, etc etc etc....Why do you personally have to be able to get into the mix and rock out huge numbers?

Without taking the other bard goodies you are pretty much a pure caster.

That's WHY spellsingers are expensive. They have caster requirements and need to take melee / song enhancements too be effective. So far it looks to me like you are helping prove the expensive end product part.

[Aashrym]

I'd rather build an Epic Dynstic Fal or Epic Elyd Edge to be able to mix it up in melee combat hehe. Both will use my high CHA for its to hit while the Edge will be able to beat most DR the Dynst uses CHA for its damage and added effects vs non lawful and chaotic targets hehe.

This way I get my useful Spell casting ability and have a weapon that takes advantge of that casting stat I use.

I went epic Elyds.

Giving up extra song IV and MotD/MotM while having a higher demand on my song pool made this weapon more attractive. And I usually see at least 1 extra song out of it.

I'm still lacking by not power attack but couldn't fit it in with my feat requirements going caster heavy, but I expected that with the choices I made.

PS: good advice on weapons

[Veileira]

To illustrate again.

Warchanter req's + inspired attack/damage III + MotD/MotM + Song Magic IV + Lingering Song IV = 54 AP
Viruoso req's + inspired attack/damage III + MotD/MotM + Song Magic IV + Lingering Song IV = 60 AP
Spellsingers req's + inspired attack/damage III + MotD/MotM + Song Magic IV + Lingering Song IV = 69 AP

69 is more expensive than 60 and more expensive than 54. 69 is a lot more expensive than 54.

And if the spell singer wants CC and healing that means up to another 10 AP to take advantage of wand and scroll mastery because items are a big part of bard healing. And adding more healing crit enhancements. And taking the capstone. And adding Bard CHA enhancements. Now we're well over the 80 point limit. War chanters do not need all of those.

It's not impossible. It is expensive. That is what this discussion is about.

Thank you for facts. I would +rep but I can't.

[Gadget2775]

You were spending AP on energy of the music outside of the pre requirements?

Of course, I like my spell points, which is another reason I went SpellSinger. More SP.

No matter how you want to look at it, having pre requirements that are wanted as a requirement in the pre leaves more AP available outside of the pre.

My PrE cost 23 AP and 1 Feat. That leaves me plenty for other enhancements. I don't want MotM or MotD. I don't want Inspired Attack (Especially at the cost). I don't run Epic content and I'd hazard the majority of the players out there don't either. That simple fact leaves me 36 additional AP to spend on things I do want. And shockingly enough I still have fun with the game. Come to think of it my Bard doesn't get kicked out of groups for not having those Enhancements. I've yet to even have someone ask if I have them...

I suppose I'll leave it at that. Y'all aren't going to convince me, that I have spend an extra 36 AP for my SpellSinger to be viable. And I doubt I'll convince you that you don't have to have them. All a matter of perspective. Fortunately I'm content with mine.

[Gadget2775]

Without taking the other bard goodies you are pretty much a pure caster.

That's WHY spellsingers are expensive. They have caster requirements and need to take melee / song enhancements too be effective. So far it looks to me like you are helping prove the expensive end product part.

29 AP for SpellSinger and the Damage song, 1 feat gone for the PrE....How exactly does specializing in CC, Healing (Beyond the intial investment of AP included in the PrE), or Mêlée after being able to take an awesome PrE that boost all casters in the party, and the DPS song while leaving 40+ AP and 6 Feats prove that SpellSinger is an expensive PrE?

[Aashrym]

My PrE cost 23 AP and 1 Feat. That leaves me plenty for other enhancements. I don't want MotM or MotD. I don't want Inspired Attack (Especially at the cost). I don't run Epic content...

snip

I suppose I'll leave it at that. Y'all aren't going to convince me, that I have spend an extra 36 AP for my SpellSinger to be viable. And I doubt I'll convince you that you don't have to have them. All a matter of perspective. Fortunately I'm content with mine.

Ummm, so your telling us that spellsingers not more expensive because your bard runs easier content than other bards? And that spellsingers are less expensive because you don't want inspired attack because it costs too much?




I decided not to reply right away because I'm not trying to argue with you and I'm concerned that's what this thread has turned into. I can appreciate that your bard does what you want it to and works in the content you are running. I encourage people to play characters that are fun.




On that note, I want you to think about the character Emili was playing and what she thought was fun when she started this post. She's had that character for a long time and has posted comments many occasions using that character as an example. Her character is a more rounded bard, taking a lot of features that are bard only features and combining them into something to which she was attached.

I told her what I did with a brief why and Irinis told her she did the same thing. She asked Matt for advice because she was attached to that character with the abilities it had and Matt would give her good advice. I have a different opinion from Matt sometimes but he does offer good advice and his opinion comes with well thought out planning and experience.




I can understand what she means by expensive with a character like that. She asked why spellsingers are so expensive. They are compared to war chanters and the simple answer of why they are more expensive to take the same bard abilities because the war chanter and virtuoso pre requirements align better with the desired general bard abilities more than the spellsinger pre does.

That's the simple answer why when looking at them. The more complex version of the question why are the devs moving in a direction where spellsingers are not able to afford signature bard abilities. I would like to think there will be something worth it at the 3rd tier.




You might not want to take the expensive inspired attack enhancements but that's not the general consensus of other builders on the forums or who were in this discussion. I have the opinion that inspire courage is the key ability that bard can provide with the most impact to the party during a run.

When I am comparing a spellsinger to a war chanter as a worthwhile alternative that is always with the inspire courage enhancements. There is simply no way that not taking them can really compare. It's also because most war chanters do splash.

It's easy to compare spellsinger benefits to a +1 party damage, ironskin, greater heroism song, and recklessness to better UMD, caster buffing songs, and SP regen. It does get harder and more situational with a war chanter who has not multi-classed. Mass attacking with +2 damage auto power attack critting is a lot of damage.

Once we lose the ability to CC effectively in some places (the party in general, this hits wizzies too) the spellsinger just became a buffer and healer. If my inspire courage is +4/+6 (for example) because I have trouble affording the enhancements I am contributing a lot less damage than the +8/+9 pure or +7/+8 splash. And if the party is losing too much hit ratio with power attack on I've just destroyed our damage rate. At this point I'm not buffing to my full potential either.

That limits my usefulness to the party. Spell points are available from other sources, and other classes still have plenty. Clerics and FvS's can definitely cover healing, wizards and sorc's can cover most of the buffs. They cannot cover inspire courage, MotM/MotD (can do MotD to a point) or have the impact of fascinate.

What you are describing involves reducing the effectiveness of the key contributions that a bard can make. Spell song trance and song of arcane might can be helpful but they are small bonus. Spell song vigor is nice but it's not something that a party can't live without. Everyone muddled through just fine without it before it existed.




You are right in that your bard is doing what you expect from it. It would not be meeting my expectation if I had the same build unfortunately.

I have posted numbers with the AP cost of some commonly sought out lines to demonstrate the cost difference to take common bard abilities. To make a realistic comparison of the cost we need a standard to compare each against and that is why I chose those fixed items.

You are also correct in that I might not be able to convince you. I accept that because if you choose not accept the information I offer there is no way for me to make you accept my opinion. I won't be taking any more time to respond to your responses in that case.

I would rather encourage any other discussion on the topic and if there is nothing more that can be added we are better off to let the thread die than argue back and forth.

[Irinis]

Ummm, so your telling us that spellsingers not more expensive because your bard runs easier content than other bards? And that spellsingers are less expensive because you don't want inspired attack because it costs too much?

Apparently Spellsingers don't have to be Bards first, we're too "special" for that. Being able to recharge REAL casters so they can do damage while we sit cheering on the sidelines means we don't have to be Bards anymore, just walking mana batteries that sing and look pretty. IE, gimps.

At this point I hope we never get a tier III, because I already can't afford the AP to do what I need to do in the content I run. I have zero AP spare to pick up anything else. It's ridiculous.

I'm actually considering dropping Bard Charisma II and III once I get epic +7 and Litany, and remaining at 40 CHA total, just to get those points back so I can do basic Bard tasks. Again, ridiculous.

[Gadget2775]

**SNIP**I decided not to reply right away because I'm not trying to argue with you and I'm concerned that's what this thread has turned into. I can appreciate that your bard does what you want it to and works in the content you are running. I encourage people to play characters that are fun.
**SNIP**
I would rather encourage any other discussion on the topic and if there is nothing more that can be added we are better off to let the thread die than argue back and forth.

+1 Increadibly well thought out and stated post. Very pleased at being able to agree to disagree.