Why all the expense on Spell Singer II?

[Zachski]

Improved Concentration 2 replaced the original Bard Concentration 2 as a cost.

Furthermore, it is now 1 AP cheaper.

[Aashrym]

Also, a SpellSinger can easily bypass Inspired Attack III.

Looking at the PRE req's so far I expect to need to do this when the 3rd tier comes out.

That doesn't change the main point that all bards still take these enhancements, and even ignoring those 6 AP for inspired attack III it's still more expensive for other bards to pick these up than it is for war chanters to pick up song magic.

Even if I were to only go partial on both lines the end result at the 2nd tier is 6 AP for war chanter II compared to other bards unless you are advocating not even taking the 2nd tier for inspired attack and inspired damage. That's still 9 AP any bard would take, and still more than the war chanter would be taking from song magic.

If I didn't bother with any inspired attack at all to even up the cost what effect would that have on my effectiveness as a bard?

[Aashrym]

Ok Matt lend me some advice I always respect your thoughts on all matters ... what shall I dump?

I'm not Matt, but I dumped music of the dead, music of the maker, and extra songs to make some AP room as what I could best afford.

I didn't like doing it either.

[sirgog]

Spellsingers are now better in (most) Epic Dungeons, Warchanters are better in (most) raid boss fights, except for the very longest one (Horoth + Suulo Elite), which is long enough for the SP regen to shine.

They have similar prereq costs. Alltold, Turbine did a great job making these two balanced. Even in the situations (like Shroud, where the boss is not so dangerous that Song of Recklessness is unusable) where one is clearly better than the other, the weaker one (in this case, Spellsinger) is still a welcome addition to a party.

[Zachski]

Actually, I've heard that it's gotten to the point where you want both a Spellsinger and a Warchanter in the party.

[DelverRootnose]

[QUOTE=Freeman;3363275]Spellsinger I always required two ranks in Imp. Concentration. QUOTE]

No Spell singer 1 has not Always required Imp Concentration 2. I redid my Spell singer and wrote down all I had, to bad I threw away the list, and all I had to loose to go to Spell singer 2 was wand and scroll mastery 4. So while the Improved concentration 2 is new the AP costs have been changed on some of the enhancements to make up for it.

[Aashrym]

Spellsingers are now better in (most) Epic Dungeons, Warchanters are better in (most) raid boss fights, except for the very longest one (Horoth + Suulo Elite), which is long enough for the SP regen to shine.

They have similar prereq costs. Alltold, Turbine did a great job making these two balanced. Even in the situations (like Shroud, where the boss is not so dangerous that Song of Recklessness is unusable) where one is clearly better than the other, the weaker one (in this case, Spellsinger) is still a welcome addition to a party.

I think this is true. It's just expensive to build the spell singer. If we follow what Zachski posted and have 1 of each that would definitely alleviate the need for spending those AP on the inspired courage enhancements.

[Freeman]

[QUOTE=DelverRootnose;3363660]

Spellsinger I always required two ranks in Imp. Concentration. QUOTE]

No Spell singer 1 has not Always required Imp Concentration 2. I redid my Spell singer and wrote down all I had, to bad I threw away the list, and all I had to loose to go to Spell singer 2 was wand and scroll mastery 4. So while the Improved concentration 2 is new the AP costs have been changed on some of the enhancements to make up for it.

It used to be called Bard Concentration, but like all other skill enhancements, the name was changed to just Improved Concentration. When they did that, the enhancements no longer appeared on anyone's enhancement list, so it would not have appeared if you wrote the list after Update 7. However, bards were always required to take two Concentration enhancements to qualify for Spellsinger. This has been covered many times in this thread already.

[Freeman]

Looking at the PRE req's so far I expect to need to do this when the 3rd tier comes out.

That doesn't change the main point that all bards still take these enhancements, and even ignoring those 6 AP for inspired attack III it's still more expensive for other bards to pick these up than it is for war chanters to pick up song magic.

Even if I were to only go partial on both lines the end result at the 2nd tier is 6 AP for war chanter II compared to other bards unless you are advocating not even taking the 2nd tier for inspired attack and inspired damage. That's still 9 AP any bard would take, and still more than the war chanter would be taking from song magic.

If I didn't bother with any inspired attack at all to even up the cost what effect would that have on my effectiveness as a bard?

Ideally, Spellsinger bonuses will reach the point where it will be viable to reduce the effectiveness of Inspire Courage to qualify for it. That would mean the PrE's have achieved parity, and I hope it comes to that eventually. Your question is misleading, since it isn't a matter of whether reducing Inspired Attack would reduced your effectiveness as a bard. The question is at which point does Spellsinger become more valuable than Inspired Attack? In other words, is there a point where you will be a better bard by taking Spellsinger instead of IA? I hope that Spellsinger is/becomes valuable enough to make that a viable question, since that would mean it was reaching parity with Warchanter and becoming much more powerful.

[-Nismu-]

it used to be bard concentration but in this update bard/wizard/aso. concentration became all improved concentration.
also before bard conc 1 was 1 ap and bard conc 2 2ap while now both levels are just 1 ap

[Aashrym]

Ideally, Spellsinger bonuses will reach the point where it will be viable to reduce the effectiveness of Inspire Courage to qualify for it. That would mean the PrE's have achieved parity, and I hope it comes to that eventually. Your question is misleading, since it isn't a matter of whether reducing Inspired Attack would reduced your effectiveness as a bard. The question is at which point does Spellsinger become more valuable than Inspired Attack? In other words, is there a point where you will be a better bard by taking Spellsinger instead of IA? I hope that Spellsinger is/becomes valuable enough to make that a viable question, since that would mean it was reaching parity with Warchanter and becoming much more powerful.

High hopes for the third tier, eh?

I have my doubts about not maxing out the inspired line, but if there is something out there that makes it worth it in the spellsinger pre line that would be nice.

Right now I don't think we are there quite yet, but on that note I have been in multi-bard parties where it would have been pointless for me to inspire courage.

[Gadget2775]

Look at the compendium, it hasn't been updated yet to reflect the new mod. As such it still shows "Bard Concentration II" as a pre-req.

As for War Chanter in general...Woo hoo! 2 more damage from your song. (Yes, I know...there are other bonuses, but that's the only one that really seems to matter). As a Spell Singer I personally gain 200 SP and 4 point to my UMD. Beyond that casters love me: 10% off the cost of all spells (That's what, 200-300 sp depending on class), +1 to Spell DC's, and I'm a heck of a lot better than a DV Cleric or guzzled Mnemonics at restoring spell points. The overall increase in damage due to increased spell points should probably make Warchanters cry. Oh, and it cost me one less feat to obtain...Really not feeling like the red headed step child here.

[maddmatt70]

Ok Matt lend me some advice I always respect your thoughts on all matters ... what shall I dump?

Eleven dex 2 would be the first to go and then elven dex 1.. It is only +1 to hit and +1 to reflex for you..

[maddmatt70]

I think this is true. It's just expensive to build the spell singer. If we follow what Zachski posted and have 1 of each that would definitely alleviate the need for spending those AP on the inspired courage enhancements.

I do not think spellsingers are better in most epic dungeons and in fact warchanters are still better in most of the epic 6-mans, but really they are better in dungeons where there is not alot of shrines. The epic game is about dps and if the caster has enough mana to mass hold throughout the whole quest and the bard can give +2 to hit and damage with inspire recklessness as well at times that bard is better then the other bard that does not have that.

Where spellsinger vigor is better is perhaps best illustrated in epic chain of flames i.e. the caster does not have enough mana to cast mass hold throughout the quest. Mass hold adds more dps to the melee then any single ability or spell in the game and if the caster is running out of mana and can not cast that then the party does less dps then it would even if the bard does not have +2 to hit and damage and inspire reckleness. Still spellsong vigor's value can not be understated because it gives more viability to spellsingers and will lead to more bard primary healers which is better for all dps in game.

[Irinis]

I'm not Matt, but I dumped music of the dead, music of the maker, and extra songs to make some feat room as what I could best afford.

I didn't like doing it either.

That's what I did and I didn't like doing it either.

Even if the new "ideal" becomes two Bards in every raid we'll still have to take Attack and Damage 3 on Spellsingers. Why? Pugs. 6-mans. Shortmans. It just means when and if there's another Bard we don't have to sing Courage... one song. But now we have to sing Spellsong Vigor for every caster and healer and ourselves... that's 4 extra songs... but we have to dump Extra Songs to afford to take it in the first place...

Just, odd. I don't know who is designing Bard PrEs and I don't know if they have actually played Bards. A lot of these new abilities sound good on paper but in practical daily pugging it's very frustrating. Unless they're designing for player frustration? lol

[Aashrym]

I do not think spellsingers are better in most epic dungeons and in fact warchanters are still better in most of the epic 6-mans, but really they are better in dungeons where there is not alot of shrines. The epic game is about dps and if the caster has enough mana to mass hold throughout the whole quest and the bard can give +2 to hit and damage with inspire recklessness as well at times that bard is better then the other bard that does not have that.

Where spellsinger vigor is better is perhaps best illustrated in epic chain of flames i.e. the caster does not have enough mana to cast mass hold throughout the quest. Mass hold adds more dps to the melee then any single ability or spell in the game and if the caster is running out of mana and can not cast that then the party does less dps then it would even if the bard does not have +2 to hit and damage and inspire reckleness. Still spellsong vigor's value can not be understated because it gives more viability to spellsingers and will lead to more bard primary healers which is better for all dps in game.

Spellsingers increase spell penetration and dc's on the saves to help land mass holds and have a more SP to add for things like haste on top of healing. If a caster is mana dumping a d6/lvl spell and hasn't hit the limit arcane might is adding damage too (more important earlier than later). Going with the standard +7/7 inspire courage from the singer over the +7/+8 on the splashed chanter I see a benefit from the spellsinger. They seem more competitive now.

This is the reasoning I have behind spellsingers being expensive. Inspire courage makes a huge difference and it becomes hard to compete with a pure war chanter and difficult enough to compete with a splashed war chanter. Better might be a matter of perspective and circumstance tho.

Sorry, but I do not agree. Yes, virtuoso is not balanced and really very weak, but spellsinger 2 is actually really good and spellsinger is arguably better in a fair number of epic dungeons these days such as epic devils assault. The reason is spellsong vigor is tremendous one mana a second to every spellcaster in a quest is silly awesome. Devils assault this means less resources. Other quests where spellsinger is likely better now include epic dq1, epic chain of flames, etc. to name a few.

At least you agree it's arguable better in a fair number of epic dungeons. Arguably better depending on circumstance is an improvement to the situation prior to U7.


edit: Note on the haste on top of healing......that comment was meant to indicate more SP for the singer for buffing and healing. I'm don't think I was very clear when writing it. Adding an edit at the bottom shows some emphasis anyway.

[frznvimes]

Just, odd. I don't know who is designing Bard PrEs and I don't know if they have actually played Bards. A lot of these new abilities sound good on paper but in practical daily pugging it's very frustrating. Unless they're designing for player frustration? lol

Must be the same person behind the archmage.

[Gorbadoc]

Archmage is a mixed bag. The +DC and some of the "free" level 1-3 spells are good. The level 4 and 5 (cough) "free" (cough cough) spells are mystifyingly expensive. But I digress.

[Emili]

Eleven dex 2 would be the first to go and then elven dex 1.. It is only +1 to hit and +1 to reflex for you..

I suppose that's where she's going to have to take the hit... drops her down to 32 reflex and I think 39 to-hit before yogo'd...

That's what I did and I didn't like doing it either.

Even if the new "ideal" becomes two Bards in every raid we'll still have to take Attack and Damage 3 on Spellsingers. Why? Pugs. 6-mans. Shortmans. It just means when and if there's another Bard we don't have to sing Courage... one song. But now we have to sing Spellsong Vigor for every caster and healer and ourselves... that's 4 extra songs... but we have to dump Extra Songs to afford to take it in the first place...

Just, odd. I don't know who is designing Bard PrEs and I don't know if they have actually played Bards. A lot of these new abilities sound good on paper but in practical daily pugging it's very frustrating. Unless they're designing for player frustration? lol

Yes I totally agree... first thing a bard is about is the song buffs... It is the only thing they provide no other class may provide. When it comes to all the other functionality that is second tier. They are not as potent in casting and not as potent in melee as other classes are no matter how you could tweak them. If you push them to be an extreme caster they're equal to and average sorc or wiz, Spec them extreme in healing and they're still behind the divine ... the sp pool is 3/4 that of divine/arcane on average. Come melee chanters may attain a decent dps yet not quite that of a pure dps build, many chanters are splashed for adding such to thier own gains.

The most significant role they bring to the table then is in fact the songs...

... as for the devs I really believe they do NOT play their own game very much. Such shows in much of the classes, PrEs and loot all the way up to epic.

The goal is to move 8 AP

Bard Extra Song IV
Bard Inspired Attack III
Bard Inspired Damage III
Bard Lingering Song IV
Bard Music of Makers
Bard Song of the Dead
Bard Spellsinger I -> Bard Spellsinger II (2AP)
Bard Musical Prodigy
Elven Dex II
Eleven Melee Attack I
Elven Melee Damage I
Racial Toughness II
Improved Concentration II
Bard Lyric of Song II
Bard Song Magic II -> Bard Song Magic III (3AP)
Bard Energey of Music II -> Bard Energey of Music III (3A))
Bard Charisma III

In order to keep extra songs and SoD/MoM due to progression Drops -2 to hit and -1 reflex -1.8 damages ... noting any racial benefits on the elf side to attain some melee is gone - no benefits in an old elf within such PrE.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Music of Makers
Enhancement: Bard Music of the Dead
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

My general opinion is Bard Extra Song IV is of importance because you're after "more songs" (additional Songs you're going to need to play) ... in view of this effect it is probably best to put down the weapons and not melee much at all then respec out any melee granting feats towards casting or healing feats as this PrE will not lend anything towards melee nature outside the song...

While I know is more or less just me being annoyed with an now antiquated bard. She predates Drow in conception and has flowed with the changes as being viable over the years... predates open enhancements and relied more on DnD aspects then DDO back at level cap 10.

My contention is it may be time to TR her into something else. She was meleeing 30 to 70 damage a swing before procs, was a decent healer and managable CC - I know is not much but was adequate to solo many elite at level things and to fill in gaps of a non-standard group ... but as time goes on I'm seeing more and more reasons not to. Then come next tier I expect to have to give up much more...

Look at the compendium, it hasn't been updated yet to reflect the new mod. As such it still shows "Bard Concentration II" as a pre-req.

As for War Chanter in general...Woo hoo! 2 more damage from your song. (Yes, I know...there are other bonuses, but that's the only one that really seems to matter). As a Spell Singer I personally gain 200 SP and 4 point to my UMD. Beyond that casters love me: 10% off the cost of all spells (That's what, 200-300 sp depending on class), +1 to Spell DC's, and I'm a heck of a lot better than a DV Cleric or guzzled Mnemonics at restoring spell points. The overall increase in damage due to increased spell points should probably make Warchanters cry. Oh, and it cost me one less feat to obtain...Really not feeling like the red headed step child here.

Am sitting at just about 1500sp am torq'd at times and con-oped, UMD is 50 before added Singer II ... 10% off spell cost is nice for me 100 more sp is nice to me ... +1 DC is nicer to me - the bard ot seems to help the most.

Yet in most the end-game Sorcerers and Wizards who built for highest DCs seem to not need it. I know many epic dungeons they're soloing or short maning... It seems 2sp regen at 2 seconds for a short time is another spell no more than 2 per minute... would it be quicker to bauble and torq's/con-oped heal scroll if you think about it?

In a world of Torq, con op 3000 sp sorceror sporting 40+ cha peaking to over 50 sometimes, Four melee buffed in group with a total of 120,000 dps a minute? The only place this PrE helps are where mana may run thin or the casters are sub-par or where mana resourses may run dry - i.e. Epic Chains.

What this entails is Spell Singer becomes more and more of a primary healer role... to do so you may have to push more Ap into healing I feel. I think you'd want some of Lyric of incredible song to help crit heal, Most likely would like some wand and scroll mastery too so as gain out of easy heal rotations... again dipping into ap you're not much left to take from but your songs (digging into buff the melee in your group may use). This area is something Cleric and FvS easily out do a bard two to one usually... they've 700 sp more SP on a cleric, near double for a FVS (Rosewood 1500sp, Heathier 2300sp, Ailiae 2900sp) and thier healing prowess can support other aspects of thier Buff and offensive casting abilities. The way I heal from cleric and FvS are cmwm, cmwm scroll, clwm typically and an occasional tweak of either heal, heal scroll or heal mass in heavier damages.

Now typical six person group... (1 arcane, 1 divine healer, 1 spell singer, 3 melee) vs (1 arcane 1 Divine healer, 1 war chanter, 3 melee) vs (1 arcane, 1 spell singer <- main healer spec'd less melee in song, 4 melee).

[Aashrym]

Look at the compendium, it hasn't been updated yet to reflect the new mod. As such it still shows "Bard Concentration II" as a pre-req.

As for War Chanter in general...Woo hoo! 2 more damage from your song. (Yes, I know...there are other bonuses, but that's the only one that really seems to matter). As a Spell Singer I personally gain 200 SP and 4 point to my UMD. Beyond that casters love me: 10% off the cost of all spells (That's what, 200-300 sp depending on class), +1 to Spell DC's, and I'm a heck of a lot better than a DV Cleric or guzzled Mnemonics at restoring spell points. The overall increase in damage due to increased spell points should probably make Warchanters cry. Oh, and it cost me one less feat to obtain...Really not feeling like the red headed step child here.

You would be surprised how fast the bonus to damage adds up with a group. Critting makes it even better.


If you want more perspective, 10% of the cost doesn't mean anything if the caster isn't running out of SP without it, same as the bonus SP; and a lot of casters are accustomed to managing the SP they already had.

+1 to spell DC's is a bit better. The higher DC's don't all come from one source, they come from stacking several small sources on bigger sources. +1 DC by itself is still a small source when we are looking at around a 40 DC already.

UMD does become pointless to get any higher eventually, the bonus SP are handy for the bard.

+1 Caster level amounts to another point of spell penetration.


The feat cost listed is negligible in itself for spell singers. They would take maximize anyway. Same as the war chanters with power attack. They would be taking it anyway if they want to melee dps. It's more like 1 feat with the weapon focus. For most builds anyway.


At level 6 +1 DC is a lot more meaningful. At level 12 the bonus SP song and an addition caster level is a lot more meaningful. At level 20 more SP, slightly higher DC and spell penetration is less useful but still a bonus if the bard can maintain a high inspire courage to go with those other benefits the bard has competitive value with the war chanters.

I think you would find yourself hard pressed to find a group who want a spell singer without inspire courage enhancements over a war chanter because the benefits from the spell singer songs do not out weigh the benefits of high inspire courage.

With inspire courage there is an immediate benefit adding a large bonus to not-so-limited resource that dominates play for 1 song. With the spell singer songs there is a smaller bonus to some aspects of spells for 1 song, more aspects for a second song, with immediate benefits for a more limited resource. There is also a delayed benefit to add more spells later by adding SP single target for 1 more song per party member who needs it.


With 1 song that affects every single swing that lasts longer and has bigger bonuses to a major play aspect (inspire courage) compared to a few songs with shorter durations and smaller bonuses it's not that hard to see the benefits of a war chanter over a spell singer. In the end any bard needs to be able to add that melee bonus to the party.

Spellsong vigor is a good song. It provides a lot of SP to the party and the party can afford to spend more SP. It's still a delayed benefit as a regen over time, and it's still expensive for the number of songs spent. Those 2 bonus damage per hit * crits over the 4:48 it takes to regen 288 sp have definitely added up to a lot of damage in that same 4:48. Some doublestrikes will increase that for a second song. So spellsong vigor is a good song but it's not exactly overpowered.


For song of arcane might and spellsong trance I also start to wonder if the dev's are playing bards with all pre's and thru all levels. PnP used to offer +1/+1 bonus for inspire courage and that was it. Development in PnP realized that was not that great and started an incremental increase up to level 20.

DDO took that same ability, more than doubled the bonuses by adding enhancements and the war chanter PRE, and developed the game with such a melee direction that the ability became incredibly important.

In PnP casters were very dominant. In DDO melee is very dominant. And instead of following the same general philosophy given inspire courage the increase to caster benefits gets a +1 bonus DC. And a +1 caster level for a second song. And that's it. And more of a finite resource (SP) compared to melee. Using more songs.

This leaves spell singers either taking enhancements for inspire courage to be competitive, or not taking them to be a CC/healer/melee of whatever mixed proportions. A bard without inspire courage enhancements hoping to get the healer spot in a group is not going to be a top pick choice. That will turn into running with guildies/friends and starting your own groups.


So the spell singer is paying AP to get the same enhancements war chanters are going to take regardless of being a requirement or not and paying extra songs for smaller bonuses just to be competitive with that +2 bonus war chanters are getting.

This is more expensive in the building process and more expensive in the song usage.

Feats seem pretty much in the same boat. There are more feat requirements for a war chanter, sure, but there are less feats needed to build a melee out of him and still have a slot or 2 some thing else. The classic rocker is a good example. And if the war chanter wants to go with a few more feats there is room to splash fighter and go with 2 weapons.

A bard who wants to be good at spell based CC and healing needs to look at the capstone, spell focus feats, spell penetration feats, maximize, quicken, toughness, heighten, empower healing/spell, and something for melee. There are more feats to enhance casters to take than there are to specialize in a line of combat.

The solution would be to choose either healing or CC and go with some melee, which does work and can be done well. I would still like to have CC/healing to be as affordable a combination on a feat starved class, and right now grabbing the metamagic precludes a lot with taking a melee feat or two. This isn't so bad, it's a tough choice and that means there is comparable worth. I'm just saying it's expensive in that aspect too.


That was a lot more information and opinion than the quote may have warranted, but I do hope it provides some perspective on the spellsingers versus the warchanters. It takes a lot of spellsinger investment to compete with that war chanter inspire courage bonus, and inspire courage really is a dominating aspect of a bard with general game play.

I also apologize in advance if anything is unclear or appears to be rambling. I'm trying to do this while working and on little sleep.