Intimidate WAI or Broken?

[Mercureal]

I posted this elsewhere, but there's much more discussion in this thread:

I was in a VoD raid on the day U7 was released and Suulo behaved very differerently than I've seen before.

Intimidate was almost completely useless in holding his aggro. Our party had a fighter with Intimidate in the high 60s, and just about any time another party member whacked Suulo with a weapon he'd spin around and attack, ignoring our Intimidator. Most of the time he'd do this while the Intimidate symbol was glowing above his head. The amount of time spent in an Intimidated state didn't seem to matter - we'd wait 7 or 8 seconds sometimes and let the tank hit him a few times to solidly take the aggro, and he'd still spin around when attacked by the rest of the party. Sometimes he didn't even wait to be attacked, he'd turn on us as we were moving up behind him. I've been in VoD raids previously with Fullpozzy or others intimitanking, and they were able to lock him in place perfectly.

His behaviour seemed subtly different in a few other ways too. He was generally more spazzy and prone to jumping away, flying around and/or aggroing on people on the other side of the room. Sometimes, he'd jump away from the wall, loom over one party member and stand there looking menacing for 6 or 7 seconds, but not attack - kind of like he was trying to use Intimidate himself.

It was clearly not due to lag, mistiming of Intimidate, other system issues or gameplay mistakes.

[KristovK]

A question for the folks seeing this problem, are there any Shintao Monks in the party? It's been observed that they are drawing aggro in end game raids away from anything.

[camgib]

I posted this elsewhere, but there's much more discussion in this thread:

I was in a VoD raid on the day U7 was released and Suulo behaved very differerently than I've seen before.

Intimidate was almost completely useless in holding his aggro. Our party had a fighter with Intimidate in the high 60s, and just about any time another party member whacked Suulo with a weapon he'd spin around and attack, ignoring our Intimidator. Most of the time he'd do this while the Intimidate symbol was glowing above his head. The amount of time spent in an Intimidated state didn't seem to matter - we'd wait 7 or 8 seconds sometimes and let the tank hit him a few times to solidly take the aggro, and he'd still spin around when attacked by the rest of the party. Sometimes he didn't even wait to be attacked, he'd turn on us as we were moving up behind him. I've been in VoD raids previously with Fullpozzy or others intimitanking, and they were able to lock him in place perfectly.

His behaviour seemed subtly different in a few other ways too. He was generally more spazzy and prone to jumping away, flying around and/or aggroing on people on the other side of the room. Sometimes, he'd jump away from the wall, loom over one party member and stand there looking menacing for 6 or 7 seconds, but not attack - kind of like he was trying to use Intimidate himself.

It was clearly not due to lag, mistiming of Intimidate, other system issues or gameplay mistakes.

I was in a VoD raid as intim tank tonight. Had a 69 intimidate (not skill boosted, not buffed) on normal. The gold intimidate symbol appeared over his head several times and he immediately turned away. This is my first experience with a successful intimidate that did not hold the boss' aggro. We spent unnecessary time and resources in a raid that should have been a cakewalk. It is extremely frustrating to me to have spent HOURS grinding gear for this build to have it nerfed without any notice at all. Had I known this was going to be broken, I would have just made a dps build and left it at that!

[Rasczak]

I do pay attention, and I do see what was said - I was just asking to rule out other possibilities. That is how we flesh out the nature of the problem.

Just because people come on forums complaining about issues doesn't mean they are really broken. I am certain that it is helpful to the devs for us to weed out issues where people don't understand intim, or where we can rule out lag or meta-game pc/connection issues.

Jumping into defensive mode doesn't help the thread. It's called a conversation - I am not challenging that it is broken - I just haven't consistently seen it myself and I HAVE seen intim work fine - even on the bosses mentioned - so that is why I was asking about ruling things out.

Vallin.

That wasn't a defensive post of mine and I'm not here to argue. I want to know what is happening. I say pay attnetion to the posts as other bosses are still effected so you can rule out lag, pc's etc etc. I'm sorry if you feel that you're being picked on but it isn't the case. You asked and I gave a response. End of story. I'll change my wording for you if it's to sensitive.

Now if you look at my thread title you will see I am asking if it is Broken or WAI. This issue is definitely happening and with the amount of responses already, all playing on different times, no hint of lag it happens. I'm not here to flesh out the problem as it is happening and it's mechanics based. The boss gets the symbol above his head meaning the server responded. If it was lag or slow pc's the boss wouldn't be intimidated according to the rest of the group. Even though your client says he was.

Do you KNOW that there is also not an aggro point mechanic? The wiki states that it does - but perhaps that is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Under many situations I have seen intim work best when it is combined with threat from damage. When people spam the intim button I have seen less consistent 'locking' of the mob. That is my experience.

I have, however, seen successful intim done without swinging. This leads me to believe that a lot of this simply boils down to dc and whatever is generating the most hate.

Owning 2 different sorts of intimis, and rogues, once a mob is intimidated they do not take their attention off you until the time is up. A better example is my intimi, with almost no combat ability, can hold a room of mobs fixated on him just by intimi and no damage done while other party members beat on them. The ONLY exception to this is mobs that teleport. This is with rogues, barbs with epic gear etc etc pounding on whatever is intimi'd. There has been a change since the update to this behaviour and it only effects certain bosses.

I can say this as doing an Epic Devil's Assault, aggro is held easily by an intimi turtling up.

This comes from years of experience with an intimi as well.

[Nospheratus]

This behavior used to happen before (back in the European servers - MOD9) in the Judge on the first part of ToD. Intimidate didn't work properly, only hate agro, even though the symbol appeared above his head.
And there was NO LAG there!

[Rasczak]

This behavior used to happen before (back in the European servers - MOD9) in the Judge on the first part of ToD. Intimidate didn't work properly, only hate agro, even though the symbol appeared above his head.
And there was NO LAG there!

I put that down to the telporting. For some reason when you intimidate and a mob/boss teleports they lose the intimidate. I've had that happen against Suulo in VoD, devils and any other porting mob that takes a bit longer to die than normal

[Rasczak]

A question for the folks seeing this problem, are there any Shintao Monks in the party? It's been observed that they are drawing aggro in end game raids away from anything.

Two of the runs there weren't any monks. The ToD run the intimi got aggro (the whole group saw the symbol as we were waiting for him to drop) and pulled north, Horoth didn't follow and attacked a character that hadn't done anything yet.

[Nospheratus]

I put that down to the telporting. For some reason when you intimidate and a mob/boss teleports they lose the intimidate. I've had that happen against Suulo in VoD, devils and any other porting mob that takes a bit longer to die than normal

Souulo teleports as well and didn't have the behaviour before. Except with some silliness on his part that he would just stand on a spot, after a teleport. Maybe they "fixed" that silliness to what it is now - ignore intimidate. If this is the way DDO is going - messing intimidate AGAIN - then it's a problem due to how hard it is to create the "typical" intimi tank -> high intimi, high ac. People spend a lot of time and resources building these due to the equipment requirements...

Other teleporting mobs didn't do that before (do they now?), like the sally-like bosses in the quests on Amrath. They aren't raid bosses, but are at least red-named.

[Rasczak]

Souulo teleports as well and didn't have the behaviour before. Except with some silliness on his part that he would just stand on a spot, after a teleport. Maybe they "fixed" that silliness to what it is now - ignore intimidate. If this is the way DDO is going - messing intimidate AGAIN - then it's a problem due to how hard it is to create the "typical" intimi tank -> high intimi, high ac. People spend a lot of time and resources building these due to the equipment requirements...

Other teleporting mobs didn't do that before (do they now?), like the sally-like bosses in the quests on Amrath. They aren't raid bosses, but are at least red-named.

I had never noticed before stalwart Pre tbh. If the melee group sat around the intimi then I would just grab aggro when he flew over after portings. When he started standing still and I had the Stalwart on it was to far to run at that speed

On some occasions it may have just been my intimi had worn off (when he started standing still) but devils that teleported would hit a caster they were standing next to. This may be because the devils teleport so sporadically as opposed to some other mobs that port towards the person they have hate for. This is just guess work on my part though from observation.

I agree on the issues with building an intimi. It took nigh on 8 months for me to kit mine out and it's all items for defence not attack so to have to try change now towrds hate tanking is more massive grind. Buffed and in stance he sits close to 90 on ac and intimi so it's sad if it's changed.

[Astraghal]

Sulu either teleports when someone hits him with a ranged attack/spell and gets his aggo, or when there's about to be trash spawns, in which case he will sit idle to one side, until his minions die or someone walks up and gets his attention.

[Kanlarz]

Intimidate is either broken or has been nerfed to be worthless since the patch. A successfull intimdate no longer means you get agro and having an intimitank for a main character makes this suck. I would love to see a dev answer this. If it is intentional I would like to know so I can throw away my gear and reincarnate as it is a waste now.

[BoBoDaClown]

OK.

I tried intim for the first time since the update.

I was intiming Suulo in TOD (normal) and due to the 'bugginess' I have been reading about I used 'shield block' and 'intim', rather than swinging as well - this was to keep everything simple.

I was very deliberate about delaying my intim to a good second after the cool-down expired, i.e. Suulo would be turning, and I'd regrab her using intim. I had zero issues doing this method (held her the whole time).

Due to the fact I have only intimed this one quest since the update, I don't know if I was lucky, or by essentially allowing intim to briefly (but noticeably) break I managed to avoid the intim bug.

Just putting it out there for other people to experiment with.

[camgib]

OK.

....

Just putting it out there for other people to experiment with.

Thanks for the hopeful words. I am seriously irritated that we have changes imposed upon us without any notice and are left to figure out what to do about them.

Here's hoping that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train...

[Astraghal]

In my experience playing an intimitank, any mob could always be turned after a successful intimidate if they are dealt spike damage.

When I'm running with people who have well geared and built toons, it's more noticable.

The lag from the server, your internet connection, swinging at the mob between intimidates or being chained by sulu can interfere with intimidate.

I often have to mash the button 2 seconds after the timer has cooled down to ensure the intimidate lands.

There's always a reason for aggro to switch and it's up to the players who are stealing aggro to take the initiative and hold back on their spike damage attacks in order to ensure a smoother, more controlled run.

Otherwise the healers have to use more resources and just heal whichever melee ends up with aggro.

Some players don't like the idea of intimitanks and actively try to compete with them for aggro.

If groups want to use intimitanks, everyone has to be prepared to work with them, not against them.

It doesn't matter if it takes longer, it's about guaranteeing an efficient completion.

[redoubt]

I noticed when I was intimdating with my bard on the named Devil in Shroud. If used intimdate as soon as it refreshed , I couldn't have him stick on me. Yet if I waited a sec or two after it finished I could keep him locked on me.

I've noticed several spell and spell like clickies have trouble going through if I try them right when the timer expires. The animation goes (so the timer is over) but the spell does not cast. If I wait a second after I see the timer expire it normally goes through.

My current guess is that it is a new client server issue (as it used to work better.)

[Quikster]

In my experience playing an intimitank, any mob could always be turned after a successful intimidate if they are dealt spike damage.

When I'm running with people who have well geared and built toons, it's more noticable.

The lag from the server, your internet connection, swinging at the mob between intimidates or being chained by sulu can interfere with intimidate.

I often have to mash the button 2 seconds after the timer has cooled down to ensure the intimidate lands.

There's always a reason for aggro to switch and it's up to the players who are stealing aggro to take the initiative and hold back on their spike damage attacks in order to ensure a smoother, more controlled run.

Otherwise the healers have to use more resources and just heal whichever melee ends up with aggro.

Some players don't like the idea of intimitanks and actively try to compete with them for aggro.

If groups want to use intimitanks, everyone has to be prepared to work with them, not against them.

It doesn't matter if it takes longer, it's about guaranteeing an efficient completion.

This is the exact opposite of my experience playing an intimitank. Ive never seen a mob agro on hate when successfully intimidated unless something seemed to not be working right.

When intimidate is successful it doesnt matter how much damage someone puts out agro should be locked for 6 seconds.

[Astraghal]

This is the exact opposite of my experience playing an intimitank. Ive never seen a mob agro on hate when successfully intimidated unless something seemed to not be working right.

When intimidate is successful it doesnt matter how much damage someone puts out agro should be locked for 6 seconds.

Last week in tod I was intimidating horoth on elite and he was constantly turning.

Yesterday in elite vod I was intimidating sulu and he was turning a lot.

I was using intimidate constantly and the yellow symbol was showing above their heads each time.

Prior to the update I didn't experience this problem anywhere near as much, but I also started raiding with a lot better geared melees at around the same time as the update came out.

I assumed it was down to spike damage, because even before the update I would see mobs turn when they were smited or critted while still on timer for intimidate, as well as from ranged attacks and spells.

So it's either the update or spike damage that's causing it.

It seems to happen more in laggy situations too, but I still see the yellow symbol, whether it's actually recorded as a successful intimidate on the server side is another question.

You can draw your own conclusions from that.

[Maetrim]

Seeing the same issue on my main intimitank. If you try to intim as soon as the timer runs out, its down to the client/server interaction as to whether it works. Wait 1/4 - 1/2 a second and it always works.

Its a timing issue. I have seen it happen on VoD, HoX and Dq. You get the intimidate symbol, but your ignored.

Me thinks the client/server issue that was tracked down for ranged repeaters is responsible ;p

[Astraghal]

Just to update with my experiences.

Both Horoth and Sulu are facing me when intimidated then turning away again a second later.

This is happening often.

[Quikster]

Last week in tod I was intimidating horoth on elite and he was constantly turning.

Yesterday in elite vod I was intimidating sulu and he was turning a lot.

I was using intimidate constantly and the yellow symbol was showing above their heads each time.

Prior to the update I didn't experience this problem anywhere near as much, but I also started raiding with a lot better geared melees at around the same time as the update came out.

I assumed it was down to spike damage, because even before the update I would see mobs turn when they were smited or critted while still on timer for intimidate, as well as from ranged attacks and spells.

So it's either the update or spike damage that's causing it.

It seems to happen more in laggy situations too, but I still see the yellow symbol, whether it's actually recorded as a successful intimidate on the server side is another question.

You can draw your own conclusions from that.

My conclusions come from using intimidate for a few years now. Damage never caused a mob to turn when intimidated, period. If they changed something with u7 thats a different story, but before it was never, ever possible to dps a mob off an imtimitank. Ever.