Boarshaman Half-orc 12Cleric/8Fighter

[Lobster5]

As tested, these builds do not require large amounts of spell points.
8 levels of fighter as a Half orc will be a frightening beast on the battlefield.

Show how it's significantly more powerful than 6 levels of fighter

Critical modifiers and combat melee prowess is missing in an 18Cleric/2Fighter.

You lose out on a +2 seeker modier, +1 damage, and what else?

The only reason I would take 18 levels of Cleric would be if I wanted to do the Heal bot thing. This build is no heal bot.
The /12 cleric builds are for those not wanting to have to kite through blade barriers.

You can have 18 levels of cleric and not be a heal bot, you can be an absolute beast in melee still, but you can also have more strings to your bow. You need not kite anything through blade barriers, but you can if you want. It's a question of what value various options give you.

The 8 levels of fighter or 6/2 depending on your style offers large fast dps that does not rely on spell points.

At this point I think you need to prove that. show mathematically how much more damage 8/12 does than 6/14, and then 18/2. I don't think it's particularly significant.

With the aura and fighter bonuses, you can solo all day melee with very high DPS and not have to worry about spell points.

All casters worry about spell points. If you're self healing then spell points matter.

Yes an 18Cleric/2Fighter would need lots of spellpoints to stay alive solo.
This build does not.

Aside from about 30 hitpoints difference I don't see what makes the 12/8 more survivable than the 18/2. If you look at it from the perspective of self-healing, self protection, and saves, then the 18 is much better.

[Chimeran]

It's a difference of 2, I can't see how that's going to be

The above is based on the premise that healing aura is wonderful on a level 12 or 14 cleric. It really isn't. Additionally turns recharge, which makes it even less of a deal to have fewer of them.

I get 51Hp/tick critical aura with 12 levels of Cleric @ Lvl19 with Bearshaman.

Cleric Divine Might I requires 14 base charisma at level6
Cleric Divine Might II requires 16 base charisma at level 10

For me personally I would prefer more constant heal auras and put the stat points into strength but I also like the idea of a 1 minute +4 damage clickie.
I will test both and see how I have to stack the enhancements to get all the good stuff.

I found having a minimum of 7-9 turns worked best for 6 man group runs and solo.
Yes you could go for less, but then the player may have to be more careful/slower about starting combat.

[kingfisher]

I get 51Hp/tick critical aura with 12 levels of Cleric @ Lvl19 with Bearshaman.

Cleric Divine Might I requires 14 base charisma at level6
Cleric Divine Might II requires 16 base charisma at level 10

For me personally I would prefer more constant heal auras and put the stat points into strength but I also like the idea of a 1 minute +4 damage clickie.
I will test both and see how I have to stack the enhancements to get all the good stuff.

I found having a minimum of 7-9 turns worked best for 6 man group runs and solo.
Yes you could go for less, but then the player may have to be more careful/slower about starting combat.

ive only been tellin you that for a couple months now. auras are meh, DM is the *******

[Chimeran]

Show how it's significantly more powerful than 6 levels of fighter
You lose out on a +2 seeker modier, +1 damage, and what else?
You can have 18 levels of cleric and not be a heal bot, you can be an absolute beast in melee still

#1 I have tested 2 other similar builds as this. A level 20 and a level 19
#2 I have never seen any battle cleric that can match the 12/melee builds yet for melee DPS, I am always looking.
#3 The damage melee output is very high and costs very little to maintain.
#4 I get all the same buffs and combat bonus spells that a much higher level Cleric uses but I also get all the fighter bonuses for weapon specialization etc etc.
8 levels of fighter
Fighter Strength II
Fighter Toughness III ( 30 hitpoints )
Fighter Kensei
Fighter Battle Axe Specialization I
Fighter Critical Accuracy III
2 levels of fighter gives........... +1 strength and less feats

[Chimeran]

ive only been tellin you that for a couple months now. auras are meh, DM is the *******

I almost was about to take your advice seriously until this post

[Lobster5]

#1 I have tested 2 other similar builds as this. A level 20 and a level 19

This doesn't mean anything

#2 I have never seen any battle cleric that can match the 12/melee builds yet for melee DPS, I am always looking.

Nor does this.

#3 The damage melee output is very high and costs very little to maintain.

This is equally nebulous. Use _numbers_ to demonstrate how high it is.

#4 I get all the same buffs and combat bonus spells that a much higher level Cleric uses but I also get all the fighter bonuses for weapon specialization etc etc.

Holy Aura says "No you don't"

8 levels of fighter
Fighter Strength II
Fighter Toughness III ( 30 hitpoints )
Fighter Kensei
Fighter Battle Axe Specialization I
Fighter Critical Accuracy III
2 levels of fighter gives........... +1 strength and less feats

Right so you've got....

20 more hit points (since 2 levels of fighter gives Toughness I}
12 more hit points from the fighter levels over the cleric levels.

+2 seeker and +1 damage from Kensai
+1 to hit and +2 damage from your Kensai pre-reqs
+1 damage from fighter weapon specialisation.

so +1 to hit and +4 to damage, as well as +2 seeker

Fighter critical accuracy does nothing, by the way, it only adds to the roll to confirm. You should be confirming regardless.

So that's your gain, 32hp, +1 to hit, +4 to damage, +2 seeker, +1 str

The above costs you 21AP and 2 feats btw. So you're still up 1 feat. Better spend it wisely

Those don't look like particularly large gains to me. Notice how divine might I pretty much wipes that out.

Now here's what you gain from going 18/2

Access to level 7, 8 and 9 spells
A load of spell slots

Big whoop to the above, right? I think we can call that a wash, (ignoring how much groups love mass death ward, mass protection from elements etc) but how about this:

Almost DOUBLE spell points (545 plays 1010)
Much better use of the heal spell (150 base plays 120 base)
Much better group healing (throw a quickened empowered mass cure serious wounds and see who gives a **** about the aura then)

And 21 AP to spend.

I'd love to see your enhancements planned out btw

[Chimeran]

This doesn't mean anything
Nor does this.

Holy aura not required.
Mass buffs not required, mass death ward and mass protection you can use single cast versions.
Again, if it needs to be done, this build can still do it with only 12 levels.
Raise dead, buff, heal, wands, scrolls, massive melee DPS, soloing with no downtime.

Also for the record, Bearshaman has 800 spell points at level 19.
I can single point heal spell or heal scroll, there is also a 1000hp heal at my disposal.
I am in front line with a 30-52 heal aura ticking and can easily burst heal from myself.
Healing has never ever been a problem.
So please, besides healing a raid, justify to me again, why the need to increase my levels in Cleric.
Simple, there is no need

I think you failed to read the very first sentence on this build... solo and 6 man grouping.
You think that testing a build to level 20 doesn't mean anything?
In all honesty if you really think 2 levels of fighter can out melee a level 8 fighter that is weapon and crit speced, I say good for you. I am sure in your own mind, you probably really believe that.
The 12/Cleric builds are very fun to play, very versatile and already proven.
End of the day.... it works and works very well.
If I feel the need to heal a raid, I will log on my TR lvl 20 FvS.
12/Clerics work well, don't be all bent and twisted about it.

[Crann]

Don't think he was bent and twisted about it, I believe he was asking for numbers to support your claim that 8 levels of fighter netted you a great deal more DPS than 6 levels or 2 levels of fighter.

Many others, like myself, might also be curious what those numbers are, because giving up those cleric levels is a signifficant loss to your casting ability.

Please explain, especially how much more crit specced you are at 8 levels of fighter, than you are at 2 or 6.

[Chimeran]

Don't think he was bent and twisted about it, I believe he was asking for numbers to support your claim that 8 levels of fighter netted you a great deal more DPS than 6 levels or 2 levels of fighter.

Many others, like myself, might also be curious what those numbers are, because giving up those cleric levels is a signifficant loss to your casting ability.

Please explain, especially how much more crit specced you are at 8 levels of fighter, than you are at 2 or 6.

The posts were about the 18/2 being more effective.
Jakarr very early on suggested the 6/2monk and play with the stats for extra strength. This appeals to me.
If we are now talking about the difference between taking 8 or 6 levels of fighter that is fine.
6 would work well with the added feats from using 2monk. Barbarian in the last build did not allow monk for alignment reasons.

[Crann]

I know what the discussion is

Show how it's significantly more powerful than 6 levels of fighter...
At this point I think you need to prove that. show mathematically how much more damage 8/12 does than 6/14, and then 18/2. I don't think it's particularly significant.

That's his question, as asked.

Would like to see the numbers also, and the difference in criticals you also refer to.

[richieelias27]

Does Holy Aura stack with Prot +4 item or Shield of faith? Because if it does, it shouldnt (All of them are a deflection bonus). Same with +4 resistance item/nightshield. Prot from charms + enchantments are covered with prot from evil except in situations where casters are non-evil. Just asking because Holy Aura is the only buff a level 18 cleric recieves that a level 12 does not.

I could see pumping CHA enough for DM I on a half-orc. Could be easily done by dropping DEX by 2. Any more than that and you'd have to dump INT entirely and only get 1 SP per level, or drop CON to 14, or find yourself a +4 tome. Unless of course you have 2 past lives. I would definitely pump CHA way before I brought STR up to 20 though. 6 Build points into CHA does much more than 6 more into STR would.

[Lobster5]

Holy aura not required.
Mass buffs not required, mass death ward and mass protection you can use single cast versions.

At what cost though? In your six man party:

Prot on all = 180 Sp
Deathward on all = 150sp

So if you cast that on Bearshaman, that's 330sp gone right at the start.

If I cast it on my 18/2, that's 85sp.

Out of the gate I am 245 spell points up on you

Raise dead, buff, heal, wands, scrolls, massive melee DPS, soloing with no downtime.

Lots of consumables being used there, so I guess this build isn't for those short of cash. In a tough fight Resurrection (or even True Resurrection) is massively better than Raise Dead, but you can't do that. I underlined the massive DPS bit, since I already showed how the extra DPS it does amounts to +4 to damage.

Also for the record, Bearshaman has 800 spell points at level 19.

Great, I gave the base values for spellpoints, not including gear. Gear will mitigate, but will apply equally to both builds. Unless of course it's wisdom based, in which case my build will benefit even further. 800 spell points is not a lot of spell points, particularly if you're casting buffs at the start. Better hope you're not in a quest where deathward or mass prot is useful!

I can single point heal spell or heal scroll, there is also a 1000hp heal at my disposal.

Wow, MORE AP sunk into this? I can single point heal too, only better, and more often. I can also Mass Heal, if I want to show off.

I am in front line with a 30-52 heal aura ticking and can easily burst heal from myself.

When it crits.

Healing has never ever been a problem.

I find that hard to believe but maybe you're very good at playing this build. My point is the healing on my build is massively better, and therefore friendlier to less expert soloers than your good self.

So please, besides healing a raid, justify to me again, why the need to increase my levels in Cleric.
Simple, there is no need

It makes your character a lot better at the cost of +4 to damage and 32 hit points. It's a much better trade off.

I think you failed to read the very first sentence on this build... solo and 6 man grouping.
You think that testing a build to level 20 doesn't mean anything?

I think individual experience doesn't mean anything. You simply saying something is "great" or "powerful" is an empty statement in the absence of a useful, evidenced, comparison.

In all honesty if you really think 2 levels of fighter can out melee a level 8 fighter that is weapon and crit speced, I say good for you. I am sure in your own mind, you probably really believe that.

I am not saying this, I am saying that 2 levels of fighter can get close enough to the melee prowess of 8 levels and also be powerful in ways that your build cannot.

Again I'd like to see your enhancements, because I think more weakness lies within.

[Lobster5]

Does Holy Aura stack with Prot +4 item or Shield of faith? Because if it does, it shouldnt (All of them are a deflection bonus). Same with +4 resistance item/nightshield. Prot from charms + enchantments are covered with prot from evil except in situations where casters are non-evil. Just asking because Holy Aura is the only buff a level 18 cleric recieves that a level 12 does not.

Holy Aura stacks, and nightshield caps at +3 resistance. Holy Aura can also be cast on allies.

And whilst a 12th level cleric can cast the same buffs, the duration is not the same.

6 more levels gives you an extra minute and 12 seconds (extended) on Divine Power, Divine Favour, Prayer, Recitation.

It also likely moves certain buffs out of the need to be extended, saving you yet more sp and yet more casting.

[Chimeran]

Holy Aura stacks, and nightshield caps at +3 resistance. Holy Aura can also be cast on allies.

And whilst a 12th level cleric can cast the same buffs, the duration is not the same.

6 more levels gives you an extra minute and 12 seconds (extended) on Divine Power, Divine Favour, Prayer, Recitation.

It also likely moves certain buffs out of the need to be extended, saving you yet more sp and yet more casting.

Taken all information on board.
Really missed the Barbarian bonuses and clickies, the Bearshaman worked so well.
Have revised build. Thank you for your feedback.

[Lobster5]

Taken all information on board.
Really missed the Barbarian bonuses and clickies, the Bearshaman worked so well.
Have revised build. Thank you for your feedback.

I hate to continue to be negative, but it didn't seem like you really took on board the full thrust of what I was saying.

Taking 6 levels of barbarian is a terrible idea on this build

You gain practically nothing, lose a lot, and the most disappointing aspect is that as a barbarian you want to be raging as much as possible, which negates the vast majority of what cleric brings to the table.

What I was saying was simply "if you've bothered to take 12 cleric levels, each level after that really increases your power"

Simply replacing the debunked levels of fighter with something worse isn't really following my advice!

[Lobster5]

Rather than constantly tell you what you shouldn't be doing, let me suggest a build for you that will do all the stuff you seem to like.


Half-Orc
Cleric 15/Monk3/Fighter 2

STR: 18
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 6
WIS: 14
CHA: 14


This gives you:

11 Feats:

Here are the essentials:

Power Attack
Tougness
THF x 3
Emp Healing
Improved Crit

This leaves you with four feats to spend on stuff to flavour the build however you like:

For example:

Extra turning (4 more uses of your aura)
Toughness (more hp is always good)
Weapon Specialisation (via weapon focus if you want some more damage to those two handers)
Stunning blow (your strength may justify it)

it also gives you:

Evasion (but with a low reflex save, could still be useful to the soloist in a fix)
10% personal healing amplification
Maxed out Balance and Jump Both are monk class skills, and monks get a healthy amount of skill points per level
Divine Might I - and access to DM II via a fairly easy to obtain +2 cha tome.

And it also gives you a lot more SP as well as access to level 7 and 8 spells. Resurrection? Yes please. Mass death ward? Not a problem.

[Chimeran]

I hate to continue to be negative, but it didn't seem like you really took on board the full thrust of what I was saying.

Taking 6 levels of barbarian is a terrible idea on this build

You gain practically nothing, lose a lot, and the most disappointing aspect is that as a barbarian you want to be raging as much as possible, which negates the vast majority of what cleric brings to the table.

What I was saying was simply "if you've bothered to take 12 cleric levels, each level after that really increases your power"

Simply replacing the debunked levels of fighter with something worse isn't really following my advice!

Heal aura and standard Barbarian rage extend 1 have very similar durations.
Frenzied rage if used by itself still allows casting or stack it with standard rage after activation of the healing aura.
A self healing Frenzied barbarian is just too much fun playing.

The build is about dps and combat bonuses through the strength stat.
I would miss the ability to maintain Frenzied rage 100% of the time and the strength boosts it gives.
Telling me that 6 levels of Barbarian is terrible means you do not fully understand the build.
Barbarian adds some serious flavor and is fully workable as proven already.
You seem to think that if building a Cleric that it must be able to fully raid heal,
I already have toons for that.
Solo and 6 man !!!
I do not need any more than 12 levels of Cleric to do those 2 things and I get a lot more enjoyment from having Frenzied Barbarian in the build.
The game is about fun, Bearshaman easily healed 6man groups while out dps'ing 90% of the toons I grouped with.
12Cleric/6Barbarian/2Fighter

15 levels in Cleric I would do for the monster summoning but that's about it

[Chimeran]

What about ftr 2 / barb 6 / cleric 12? Seems to me you could use the 2 feats + Haste boost + 1 STR enh more than what barb 7 & 8 get you. That's enough to take THF x 3, Toughness, PA, Imp Crit, Cleave, Emp Heal, and one more metamagic.

Yes I like your advice, have revised build to add this. Thank you.

[Chimeran]

Could use a bit more Min/maxing

Drop Dex to 8 and int to 6 put those 6 build pnts into Str for 20 starting.
-1 Reflex wont do much on a build with evasion and over all it wont do much on anybuild. 6 int vs 10 as you only get 1 skill pnt any ways. Only other thing I'd do would be drop to 6 fighter and go 2 monk for 2 feats(also evasion but see above). You can grab some Meta Feats like quicken/Max/Emp for BB(which with Pot can still be very effective).

Have changed starting stats, thank you for posting advice.

[CSFurious]

but you are playing with some real pooftas if this build has more dps than dedicated melees

that is all

easily healed 6man groups while out dps'ing 90% of the toons I grouped with and I was a Cleric/Barbarian... that is just awesome.
12Cleric/6Barbarian/2Fighter