Horc Staff Master

[OldAquarian]

my Opinions in red.
No problem with a stick rogue/barb but the rogue/fighter/monk just has more synergy and upside.

One last thing, AcroIII still isn't out yet. If it adds even half of what I & II do to staff speed anything short of 18 rogue will seem a waste.

Thank you for that detailed breakdown - +1 Rep

As to Acro III - will need to see what that brings and what else has changed by then - likely 18/1/1 Fighter/Monk as nice as the cap is - at some point, too much SA means sitting doing nothing and extra feats will always be useful

[t0r012]

Thank you for that detailed breakdown - +1 Rep

As to Acro III - will need to see what that brings and what else has changed by then - likely 18/1/1 Fighter/Monk as nice as the cap is - at some point, too much SA means sitting doing nothing and extra feats will always be useful

There is always something to be said for extra damage. The rogue SA cap is very, very nice. Arguably the "best" capstone to be had anywhere.

For Acro III, if it is good, it is a tough call what if any split to use. 19/1monk, the 18/1monk/1 fighter also has its appeals and then again so does pure.

I'd probably be disinclined to go 18/1/1 personally. Giving up the 1d6 sneak and the last rogue feat is a bit steep for for fighter 1 which is a couple HP from level 10more from toughness AP and +1 to SB DC from tactics line. I just don't see the trade worth it for giving up one of the Class feats. given the choice i'd give up skill mastery but with only 4 skill mastery usually doesn't make my list.

the real dilemma for me would be 19/1 or Pure. windstance speed when unhasted + doublestrike is a lot as is the Wisdom bonus to AC add in Ki strikes for a little extra boost and it is a real tough call. On the whole the monk adds damage and a whole lot of possible defense but rogue cap 4d6 is a lot of damage and +2 int isn't bad in its own right.

I guess I'd have to buckle down and puzzle out the numbers for wind doublestrike damage + occasional ki strike + 1 more dex damage on sneak from wind 1 and compare that to the numbers from the cap. plus flurry of blows adding adding the 1 BaB is a help if you miss on more than a 1. Plus the Monk bonus Feat and lets not forget tiny little things like beating oozes with fists to avoid weapon damage.

Arrgghhh , just so many factors to consider, some of which don't lend well to straight number crunching.

Shooting from the hip I'd say 19/1 would be my choice as that one brings a lot of benefits even if it is reduced DPS vs. pure. But thats my choice if you are a powergamer DPS is the end all be all then you would go pure (and TWF STR kopesh assassin but that is beside the point).
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also not such an awful idea to level 19/1 and grab the reincarnate for the cap to get the best of both worlds when you really need them. defense for leveling and max DPS at Cap.

[OldAquarian]

Shooting from the hip I'd say 19/1 would be my choice as that one brings a lot of benefits even if it is reduced DPS vs. pure. But thats my choice if you are a powergamer DPS is the end all be all then you would go pure (and TWF STR kopesh assassin but that is beside the point)

The extra dps from monk is always there, so when you can't do Sneak Attack damage, dps is higher. So it also adds flexibility and makes the math that much harder.

By the way - any comments on the actual build would be appreciated

[Anthios888]

But... 6 monk / 13 acrobat is SOOOO FAST! How could you not want to be so fast?!

[elyssaria]

But... 6 monk / 13 acrobat is SOOOO FAST! How could you not want to be so fast?!

Only SOOOO FAST when unhasted Otherwise it "only" gives 5% doublestrike + 1D6 Sneak attack damage and Shadow Fade (which I love).

/Khierra

[Anthios888]

Only SOOOO FAST when unhasted Otherwise it "only" gives 5% doublestrike + 1D6 Sneak attack damage and Shadow Fade (which I love).

/Khierra

Monk running speed stacks.

[OldAquarian]

Monk running speed stacks.

True and the 1 Ranger level adds sprint + FE

I honestly like both builds - I just like this one a little better

[elyssaria]

Here are the calculations as per request by OldAquarian:

13 rogue 6 fighter 1 monk (42 STR)

452,17 DPS if THF-Twitching
390,59 DPS normal fighting (Then you have glancing blows)

13 rogue 6 monk 1 ranger (40 STR)

467,29 DPS if THF-Twitching
396,99 DPS normal fighting (Then you have glancing blows)

Now we need to remember that the 3 damage from FE is very limited since it only works against one group of monsters. So if we remove those then the DPS is 457,18 THF-Twitch and 387,55 THF.

Then you have some other factors to keep in mind when choosing a build:


13 rogue 6 fighter 1 monk
* 6 Fighter give you 4 extra feats + 1 from 1 Monk
* 6 Fighter gives more HP then 6 Monk
* 6 Fighter gives better BAB then 6 Monk
* 6 Fighter gives 2 extra damage from weapon specialization and 2 extra str (equals to 1 more damage and 1 to hit)
* 6 Fighter gives you kensei I +2 damage (due to THF), + 1 to combat dc, +1 to ki on critical hits

13 rogue 6 monk 1 ranger

* 6 Monk gives you 3 extra feats where the 6 Fighter gets 5
* 6 Monk gives 5% doubleattack chance instead of 2,5% with 1 monk
* 6 Monk gives a bit better ki strikes, resulting in about 1.5 more damage per hit compared to 1 Monk
* 6 Monk gives 20% extra run speed, whereas 1 monk gives none
* 6 Monk gives ninjaspy I which gives 3.5 extra sneakattack damage and also Shadow Fade (which in my oppinion is a very very nice ability that gives you a 20% concealment that stacks with Blur and Displacement
* 1 Ranger adds 3 extra damage vs favored enemy (very situational though), ranger sprint boost

Just some more input to the discussion

/Khierra

[OldAquarian]

Thanks Khierra, just one question, how does the fighter "improved glancing blows" factor in?

Also, it seems that "6 Fighter gives better BAB then 6 Monk" does not apply if you are balanced

[elyssaria]

Thanks Khierra, just one question, how does the fighter "improved glancing blows" factor in? Can you explain this a bit more? I can't recall any fighter "improved glancing blows". Normally the improved glancing blows means 2-3% extra chance for effects to pass on to the glancing blow.

Also, it seems that "6 Fighter gives better BAB then 6 Monk" does not apply if you are balanced

With reservation of not being a specialist within the BAB it appears to me that the fighter will have a small advantage. According to the character planner a 13r/7m/1r build would have 14/14/19/24 on the attacks. Then you have flurry of blows which starts as 1 extra bab and every 4 lvls you gain another. So that would mean that the stats would be 16/16/21/26. Whereas the fighter gets 16/16/21/26/26 (with 1 flurry included). This is only according to the character planner and I wouldn't be surprised if you get an extra attack with the monk version as well since you reach above 15 BAB (this is a guess though). If so then it would be close even if the fighter gets slightly better bab on some of the attacks.

See the answers in bold text above in the quote

/Khierra

[OldAquarian]

from http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...taff_Mastery_I :

Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I

You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals, and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a Quarterstaff.

[elyssaria]

from http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...taff_Mastery_I :

Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I

You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals, and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a Quarterstaff.

Ahh I checked another kensei mastery and it wasn't quarterstaff so it didn't have the additional chance of applying magical weapon damage, however it should be as I said before then around 2-3% extra chance that your special effects like holy, shocking etc are applied on a glancing blow.

/Khierra

[testing1234]

lot of people seems to completely bypass the 13rogue/6fighter/1barb.
its the 1 barbarian id like to speak up for think its a better fit for this build then 1monk.
1lvl barb:
barbarian toughness 10hp 1AP (barb 1 lvl is 12hp monk is 8HP so +4extra hp for a total +14hp)
barbarian sprint 35% stacking run speed for 20sec 1AP
+1 power attack 1AP +1damage -1tohit
+10% running speed passive stacking
you also get 1 rage for 30sec+con modifier

1lvlmonk:
+2str from fire stance or +7,5attack speed +2,5% double strike with a -2con
+2 reflex +2will save higher then 1 lvl barb
elemental stikres 1d6 fire/lightning... 4damage from the earth strike

not a bad payout for a single monk lvl but the run speed from barb just seems more fun to me.


this is one speedy running build both acrobat run speed 10% and the 10% barbarian run speed so 20% stacking passive run speed this is like nobody else in party are wearing striders and you are and u can boost this for a extra 35% stacking when you need makes you the fastest character in the game for this 20sec by 15% margin over monk.
belive monk caps out at +30% running at lvl15 for comparison.

[testing1234]

* 6 Monk gives 20% extra run speed, whereas 1 monk gives none
/Khierra

according to wiki 6 monk gives 10% running speed. sounds very bottom heavy if your really correct are you saying 12monk have 40% running and 15 monk 50% running or that it caps out at 9 and never raises after that?

[painindaguild]

i think i already pointed this out but once again.

most reasons u listed to go barbarian monk simply does better. for instance monk running speed. monk goes 10% faster then mister barb on lvl 6. saves are the most important, for the simple fact dex is a dump stat and we aint gonna take the int feat.. monk brings most.

also 1 thing as u never rolled a rogue before apparently:
u cant do traps while raged.

i bet im a "cheater" then that my monk outruns the normal melees with 30 striding. maybe check this again???

12/6/1 or 12/7 rogue/monk/fighter looks like the best trade off for this build. however evrything is viable and just take wat u want, after all it wont differ really.

the real question is still: how fast do u wanna go?

[testing1234]

i think i already pointed this out but once again.

was only comparing 13rogue 6fighter builds if they should go 1 monk or 1 barb as nobody in this thread had apparently considers this close enough to talk about. not sure if barbarian 1 lvl is better as the classes dont give the same type of benefits but think its close enough to valid a good long hard think about.
so no you had not pointed this out before as it had not been discussed before at all.

also 1 thing as u never rolled a rogue before apparently:
u cant do traps while raged.

1 lvl barbarian will have a total of 1minute of rage between each shinre this will not affect trap skills and is not reason you go 1 lvl barb or should not be. most 1 barb splashes only use this at certain short lived endfights and like i said only if the endfight is short.
and ive had a rogue/monk qstaff build was decent dps like most rogue builds are but found the weapon choices very limited if your to lazy to make sevral GS qstaffs, and as such would been better to go more focused on stunning blow since then your main weapon would be a randomly generated qstaff. still if you willing to farm shroud for this character also then sure go monk.

most reasons u listed to go barbarian monk simply does better. for instance monk running speed. monk goes 10% faster then mister barb on lvl 6. saves are the most important, for the simple fact dex is a dump stat and we aint gonna take the int feat.. monk brings most.

im not buying the fact that 6lvl of monk gets 20% stacking running speed did check the information on wiki and it said its incorrect but if you got a link to somewere else i trust saying monks get this?
or are you saying 6monk got 20% none stacking run speed becuse thats rather weak compared to 10% stacking

if 6 lvls of monk or 6 lvls of fighter is best is seems rather easy to me if you want stunning blow you go fighter if not you get sevral fun abilities from 6monk no matter if you go dark or light. if you want dps then im not sure as cant help thinking what the heck are you doing with a qstaff build in the first place?

12/6/1 or 12/7 rogue/monk/fighter looks like the best trade off for this build. however evrything is viable and just take wat u want, after all it wont differ really.

the real question is still: how fast do u wanna go?

i agree,
myself find the fire stances +1stunning blow from str only reason to go monk and running speed only reason to go 1lvl barb but included all the details as others might find them interesting.
id never consider going 6 or 7 lvl of monk since it would lose to much in stunning blow which is to me the one saving grace of using qstaffs, not saying that 6monks is less good but you dont compare a splash monk build with a stunning blow build in my opinion as goals are not the same.

not sure if i made myself very clear in this post but cant seem to way to say what i think on the subject in few words thats easily understod. i agree with you that its a taste matter on which of this builds are best.

i bet im a "cheater" then that my monk outruns the normal melees with 30 striding. maybe check this again???

yes i know monks are faster then any other ive always assumed they had 40% but cant find a good trustworth place that has that info and list what speed they have at what lvls they get that speed

[OldAquarian]

if you want dps then im not sure as cant help thinking what the heck are you doing with a qstaff build in the first place?

Lets not jump to conclusions about this not being a solid DPS build

It has enough rogue levels that you will likely need to hold back unless your tank is rock solid
Any DPS over the hold back level is wasted, so if you can pull agro, you are a dps build

[elyssaria]

im not buying the fact that 6lvl of monk gets 20% stacking running speed did check the information on wiki and it said its incorrect but if you got a link to somewere else i trust saying monks get this?
or are you saying 6monk got 20% none stacking run speed becuse thats rather weak compared to 10% stacking

yes i know monks are faster then any other ive always assumed they had 40% but cant find a good trustworth place that has that info and list what speed they have at what lvls they get that speed

Well from my knowledge of playing monks it increases by 10% every 3 lvls and the first step is at lvl 3 then next 6. This also confirms with the normal D&D rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm

As said I am 99,99999 % sure that you have 20% runspeed at lvl 6

/Khierra

[OldAquarian]

So - been leveling this and I have actually found Brutal Throw very useful - I still miss occasionally, so it seems I would miss a lot more without it - ranged damage is not crazy good - but it is good enough for when its needed

Staff speed is noticable, and dps is high enough that I have to hold back often enough, unless there is a really good tank (and even then )

Get some odd stares when I join a PuG - then when people notice kill counts, I get a lot of questions, so it seems to be working out

Short form - fun so far

[Mistycball]

Very interesting built....