Horc Staff Master

[Dragon-Kin]

First - thanks to the OP for the build concept, very solid +1 rep.

I am also running this on my first TR, had a Big F Stick build capped and wanted to see if the Horc race would be a nice change, hey go from the smallest toon in the party to a monster sounded fun.

I can say that the DPS on this build is equal to or greater than my Exployter build at the same level. The glancing blows are making a huge impact on the low level content. I am also seeing what looks like cleave from NWN, even though I do not have the feat. I seem to kill mobs so fast the combat move continues and wipes out the rest of the nasties in a arch around me...

Now, my toon is well geared, but from the eyeball test your DPS numbers may be right on target. I have not run in a PUG that I did not lead the kill count by a nice margin to date, and I am an average player at best. When I do want to pour it on nothing seems to stand in my way.

Wonder how this will go at 12 and 13 when I get all my greensteel litII and +6 gear...

Thanks again for the great work here, really having fun with it!!

Look for Pivott on Khyber for a demo.

[OldAquarian]

Wonder how this will go at 12 and 13 when I get all my greensteel litII and +6 gear...

At 12 - Gear upgrades
At 13 - 6 Rogue: boost from Acro I (noticably faster)
At 14 - 7 Rogue: biggest jump in Sneak Attack - +d6 SA, SA Training III
At 15 - Greater THF: a jump in glancing
At 16 - 9 Rogue: +d6 of SA
At 17 - Opportunist, SA Training IV
At 18 - Another +d6 of SA
At 19 - Acro II - another speed boost (and Immunity to falling)
At 20 - Another +d6 of SA (and Imp Evasion)

So choose your tanks wisely

[Seydlitz]

Really, really like this build and I'm going to give it a try. What sort of gear do you figure this guy will be carrying? I have seen HORC's running around with Dreamspitters and the staff from the IQ (Raul's Might?). Is this the sort of thing your build will be using? Also, what sort of armor will he be wearing - theoretically speaking, o' course....

[XL_Jockey]

I feel like finding good weapons is a lot tougher than I anticipated. Other than getting ready to try for a dreamspitter, I think I'll be stuck with some underwhelming weapons for a while.

[OldAquarian]

I feel like finding good weapons is a lot tougher than I anticipated. Other than getting ready to try for a dreamspitter, I think I'll be stuck with some underwhelming weapons for a while.

Still leveling, but with the attack speed - any Paralysing staff is effective - if not just plain fun
Currently carrying a bunch of situational staves, but so far - thats my favorite

[OldAquarian]

Really, really like this build and I'm going to give it a try. What sort of gear do you figure this guy will be carrying? I have seen HORC's running around with Dreamspitters and the staff from the IQ (Raul's Might?). Is this the sort of thing your build will be using? Also, what sort of armor will he be wearing - theoretically speaking, o' course....

I will defer to the well laid out gear options listed under the Big F'n Stick Build
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960

[XL_Jockey]

Still leveling, but with the attack speed - any Paralysing staff is effective - if not just plain fun
Currently carrying a bunch of situational staves, but so far - thats my favorite

Yeah, I'm only lvl6 myself since I just rolled this char and play it sparingly. I have a +3 Quarterstaff and a +1 Flaming of Somethingorother. I rolled into Delera's with a hireling and finished the first part but it's just lacking. Might have to make a pair of Mabar wraps to swap into instead though I hate mote farming and don't have the plat to buy any. Gotta hop on my main and hit some chests to see what I can find.

[weedf16]

My thoughts on this concept are this. First, imo opinion the last thing a rogue wants is aggro. Therefore, I am going to try this build without the THF feat chain. Suddenly, this concept is not feat starved thus reducing the need to splash monk or fighter for combat feats. IMO, if you are splashing 1 lvl of monk it better be for AC otherwise you are just gimping yourself. My build will be a 12/8 rog/barb or maybe 13/7 for the extra 1d6 sneak. The feat progression will be:

1) Toughness
3) PA
6) SB
9) CE
12) Imp Trip
15) Imp Crit: Bludgeon
18) Quickdraw

I'm not sold on the CE/Imp trip addition, I'll see how my trip DC's work out then maybe replace those with a weapon focus, more toughness, or maybe SF: UMD. I plan on NEVER turning on CE.

A couple of comments on the previous posts:

- I don't feel the need to be the fastest runner in a group. In fact, as a rogue if you're out front and not in sneak mode you just got all the aggro and lost your most potent weapon: sneak attack.

- The point of this build is DPS. If you get aggro, your DPS drops off significantly. Max subtle backstabbing is a must.

- Traps rarely slow down a party unless on elite/epic. Most of the time the rogue is left behind to disarm for the extra xp while the party zergs ahead. So if I'm raged I will zerg ahead and come back for the boxes once rage wares off. For the rare times when you approach a trap that will be a party wipe unless the rogue disables, I'm willing to sacrifice a rage.

[wiglin]

A couple of thoughts. As always these are my opinion and others may vary.

1) A good hate tank (my preferred method of tanking) can keep aggro against quite a bit of damage. Now if you spend most of your TOD's, VOD's, etc... in a pug where a good hate tank is hard to come by then I understand, but if you are with good players then max the dps first, and see how many times you pull agro before dropping the THF feats.

2) Stunned mobs in epics take damage regardless, the more the better.

3) I like the idea of improved trip, but having to take CE first is really a turn off, and it doesn't auto crit. I would just stick with Stunning Blow. No CE pre-requisite.

4) 13 Rogue is my minimum. This way you have both improved evasion and opportunist.

5) 6 Barb is a good cutoff, no real game breaking gains from levels 7 or 8 in the class or enhancements. With a 13/6/1 you can take 1 fighter which opens up a +1 dc enhancement for stunning blow, and 6 barb gives you the option for frenzy.

6) Splashing 1 monk for starters is impossible with barb levels, but aside from that it does not gimp yourself. At the least you can get +2str, or +2.5% doublestrike, and 1d6 dmg with ki strikes.

[OldAquarian]

While some have commented that the THF causes aggo or does nothing - keep in mind that it has previously been broken - and even without THF - you have the same chance of doing some damage - THF only increases the damage done (from 20% to 50%) - so if you are going to grab any unhit mob - doing more damage is better and should be just as easy to overcome by a tank.

In addition glancing blows effect your primary target and is now a not insignificant part of THF damage
While Barb is an option for staff builds - it seems that fighter or monk fit better as low levels of Barb do not have seem to have enough rage to be always on, this raises issues of fatigue and some rage can be lost if you need to trapsmith.
Kensei seems to be a roughly even tradeoff with Monk - and as linked previoisly, monk6/ranger1 seems a good alternative, as does monk 7.

This is not a pure rogue build, and although the SA damage is good - this build can manage even on mobs immune to SA. Both are a bit heartier than a pure rogue and can take a few hits, and in this respect acts like a regular DPS build.
While people may still scoff at staff builds, the Half Orc benefits make them a serious build now, as anyone who has grouped with one can attest. I still get the occasional disbeliver before a run, but never after. As I, and others with this build, have often topped the kill counts. (kill count is not perfect, but if you generally are top and people see you mowing down mobs, its relevant). The speed benefit is very noticable.

I, for one, am really enjoying this build, and it just keeps getting better. The only varient to this build is to opt out of some of the less neccessary feats and go more toughness, but I find the ranged option valuable, same with quickdraw and resilience.

As a side note, somebody in a PuG with me (I was on an alt), was running this build and was bragging about it to me. It was interesting seeing it in action 3rd person. I was not disappointed, but that time, although close, it didn't top kill count

[OldAquarian]

Added skill comments as follows to OP by request:

As far as skills go:

Didn't actually lay it out - but obviously
1 pt Tumble - Thats all you need
Max: UMD,DD,Search,Jump
only Some Balance (remember you will get fall immunity so not too much),
Some Spot, (more if you don't know where the boxes are) - seeing hiding enemies has value
Some Open Lock - don't need this maxed
Some Hide
Some Move Silently
Depending on your playstyle/tank throw in Bluff, Diplomacy
And then there is always Haggle

You get alot of points, so its easy to catch skills up, during the last levels that are all rogue
Rogue levels are 9 each, so there is a lot of freedom here, but , if you want and have access, a +2 INT tome at 7 gives you 1 more per level

[callforkills]

I don't completely understand this build.

IIRC arcobat makes dex bonus add to staff damage, but this build only has 12 dex..
It has no wisdom for monk levels, which would be very nice if it had = much more
dps with monk elemental attacks and more ac.
Brutal throw, resillience and quick draw, ***?

make a quick leveling char like cleric or bard - TR it twice and you have 36 stat points.
That would make this build a decent dps when not having aggro, able to solo and
decent ac.

I know rogue gives more sneak attack every odd level, but i would make this build 12 rogue, 6 fighter, 2 monk.

[OldAquarian]

I don't completely understand this build.

IIRC arcobat makes dex bonus add to staff damage, but this build only has 12 dex..
It has no wisdom for monk levels, which would be very nice if it had = much more
dps with monk elemental attacks and more ac.
Brutal throw, resillience and quick draw, ***?

make a quick leveling char like cleric or bard - TR it twice and you have 36 stat points.
That would make this build a decent dps when not having aggro, able to solo and
decent ac.

I know rogue gives more sneak attack every odd level, but i would make this build 12 rogue, 6 fighter, 2 monk.

Dex to staff is nice, but the main idea of Acro II/Monk I is +speed/doublestrike
Rogue 13 allows Opportunist and Imp Evasion (and another SA die)
Quick Draw allows for faster Rogue Haste
In addition Quick draw + Brutal throw allows for good ranged
Resilience is for traps you have to get past to disarm

If you don't like the 3 feats - toughness is always good - However - I found the feats chosen more useful

[Resilian]

Ya, in my build variant I initially had a bunch of toughness, but then realized it wasn't really needed. These builds can easily get to 500hp without any major buffing (maybe a rage..) and thats with just 1 toughness. I ended up taking Skill Focus: UMD on my build because I don't care much for ranged.

To quote my build:

Hitpoints (unbuffed):
20 heroic
10 draconic
8 ranger
48 monk
78 rogue
20 racial toughness
22 toughness
140 con
40 Sup False Life
20 toughness item
45 greensteel
--------------------
451 HP unbuffed
+20 Rage Spell
----------------
471 HP
+40 Madstone
--------------
511 HP
+40 Double Madstone
------------------------
551 HP if fully raged

[Dragon-Kin]

Question for the OP, why the max on concentration for skills?

[OldAquarian]

Question for the OP, why the max on concentration for skills?

Um, no reason, unless you really want to monk around, removed

[OldAquarian]

I ended up taking Skill Focus: UMD on my build because I don't care much for ranged.

What do you do for the times you need to range?

[Cardtrick]

Thank you for this build -- I really love the concept of it, and it seems like it could be very effective. I'm about to roll up a slightly modified version of it, for primarily solo play (I know it sounds masochistic, but I really enjoy soloing rogues).

Here's what I'm planning:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Badstick d'Trick
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
(6 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 310
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 15
Will: 8

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             20                 27                   30
Dexterity            12                 14                   17
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         12                 14                   14
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma              6                  8                    8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               5                 13                   19
Bluff                 2                 21                   22
Concentration         2                  3                    4
Diplomacy            -2                 -1                    0
Disable Device        5                 25                   25
Haggle               -2                 -1                   -1
Heal                 -1                  0                    0
Hide                  4                 14                   14
Intimidate           -2                 -1                    0
Jump                  9                 22                   26
Listen               -1                  0                    0
Move Silently         3                 18                   18
Open Lock             5                 17                   17
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                  2                    2
Search                5                 25                   25
Spot                  1                 20                   20
Swim                  5                 10                   10
Tumble                2                  4                   10
Use Magic Device      2                 22                   25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Balance I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Brutal Throw
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV

As you can see, it's mostly the same. There are a few differences:

* I played with the order of the first ten levels to spread out the rogue skills a bit for more early-game trapmonkey ability and to get a few useful feats earlier (doesn't lead to Kensai coming any later, though)

* Replaced Quick Draw and Resilience with SF: UMD and a second Toughness

* Decided to put some points in Balance, since knockdown immunity doesn't take effect until level 19; took Bluff for some extra sneak attacks when soloing; left open lock, hide, and move silently low -- will need to use gear for those

* Various minor changes to enhancements, but of course those can be respecced at any time; I'll play around with those a bit before deciding on what to go with long term.

Thank you again for the excellent build. I can't wait to try it out!

EDIT: Also, I'm thinking about swapping my second Toughness out for Sap. Does anyone have any insight into how well/poorly Sap would work with this build?

[Emizand]

Any chance of an update pls?

[Acers13]

I had started a similar build, but decided to drop the dragonmarks for cleave/great cleave/extra toughness when I read that 'diploing' the chest was charisma based.
out of curiosity, why take monk with no wisdom?

I was thinking the same thing with the Cleave and no wis :P. I almost put it through the CharGen and posted it on thread but than i saw your post xD.