Repairing Ninja Spy PRE ... brainstorm session.

[maestro973]

I know nobody is saying nerf/buff the first tier, but I just wanted to point out how amazing shadow fade is, and I think people may be overlooking its usefulness throughout all content. Yes, the 25% incorp bonus stacks with blur, which alone makes it very potent from level 6 all the way through epics. The ability to instantaneously invis yourself is simply clutch though. It means you can perform certain actions while invised like pulling a lever and then go invis again before anything has a chance to aggro on you. That ability alone makes ninja spy worth the price of admission IMHO.

Go solo epic claw of vulkoor and you'll see what I mean.

[Soleran]

That statement needs no support from me. That statement is supported by the game mechanics.

And you have yet to answer my original question, which was: Why do you think that monks *SHOULD* do more DPS than rogues?

You are the one making accusations I don't have to support your statements, you have to support your statements. Post up where dark monks are a support class like say a bard that can significantly boost group dps consistently as an example.

[Calebro]

You are the one making accusations I don't have to support your statements, you have to support your statements. Post up where dark monks are a support class like say a bard that can significantly boost group dps consistently as an example.

I can't explain it any better than I already have three different times.
Most of a Monk's support isn't for the party. A Monk's support is mostly for himself by way of immunities and utility. And as I have also said numerous times, the word support isn't meant as a party role in this case, it's meant as as designation of his place as a secondary, non-main-DPS, melee position.
I can't be any clearer than I have been. Just because you can't follow it doesn't make it untrue.

[Calebro]

Just for Soleran:

The thread is entitled Repairing Ninja Spy PrE, which indicates that it needs fixing, which indicates that it's broken. Ninja Spy isn't broken, and doesn't need "repairing" in any way.
The OP suggested that Ninja Spies should do more DPS than rogues do.
I have asked why anyone thought this twice now, and no one has answered me. What you keep doing is asking me to explain why they are considered secondary melee, which I have done multiple times, all while you continue to ignore my question.
I've answered your question, so do me the favor of answering mine.

Just so we're clear, I'll repeat what I've said throughout this thread and condense it into a single post.

Monks, because of the plethora of class abilities they receive, are secondary DPS. No one else in the game has all of the inherent class abilities that monks have, and to raise their DPS to compete with that of fighters and barbarians would be to overpower the class to such a degree that it would be broken. To recap, monks get, for free, without spending a single AP:

• Saves: 3 good
• BaB: medium, high when centered
• Increasing damage based on level
• 4 different stances
• 5 different elemental strikes, with associated finishers
• Evasion
• Meditation: an inherent way to regain your power source if needed
• Still Mind: bonus to saves vs enchantments, which is much more useful in combat than a rogue's trap sense
• Automatically bypass some types of DR
• Inherent feather fall ability
• Increasing AC based on level
• Immunity to diseases
• Resource free healing
• Improved evasion [not a choice, a granted ability]
• Immunity to poisons
• Abundant step, used to get into or out of combat quickly, or as a utility
• Spell resistance 10+level
• Insta-kill effect
• Immune to spawning new undead when killed
• Resource free shadow walk spell
• DR 10/epic
• free feat
• free feat
• free feat

All of these things create a situation where the class needs lower DPS in order to be balanced. This puts Monks in a secondary DPS role. His inherent utilities force this upon him.
I understand that you want monks to be the best at everything, but with all the freebies that they get, they aren't supposed to be the best at everything. They're a defensive/utility support DPS class, and all of those natural defenses, and all of those inherent class abilities means that they should absolutely not be top tier DPS.

If you boost a Monk's DPS to be competitive, there will be little to no reason to play a Fighter, Barbarian, or Paladin ever again. Kind of like we saw over the past two months.

People complain that all those little goodies that a Monk gets don't matter, that they're inconsequential.
Individually, that would be true. But as a whole, they make for quite a powerful defense.
People complain that spells and gear can duplicate all of that, but those people fail to realize that the Monks can then use that gear slot for anything else that they want, without ever needing to swap gear in for certain situations. This is a HUGE benefit for Monks. Monks can outfit themselves in something similar to a Barbarian's guard setup if they so choose, and they lose absolutely nothing by doing so.
For every item that a Fighter needs to swap in for any given situation, that's one less piece of gear from their "optimal" setup that they have on. Monks don't have this problem.

This is exactly why they should not be top tier DPS, and this is exactly why they are right where they should be on the DPS charts. Nothing is needed. What you'll likely see is that Ninja III will be OP'd without intending to be.

When I call a Monk a support melee, you're interpreting the word "support" to mean that the class can support the party, when in a monk's case it means he can support himself. So it's utility we're talking about, and the word "support" isn't meant as a party role.
But because of a monk's utility, he drops from main DPS to support DPS.
Just like a rogue.
A rogue can only sustain "main DPS" numbers as long as he doesn't have aggro. As soon as he gains aggro, his DPS is practically nonexistent in comparison. This makes him a support DPS class who can deal main DPS damage in bursts. A monk's damage has no such limitations, which is why it needs to be lower than a rogue's burst numbers, but much higher than a rogue's if that rogue has aggro.... which is exactly where they fall on the charts. Right where they should be.

Furthermore, since we're speaking about Ninja Spy specifically here, the fact that Ninjas get sneak attack as an ability of the PrE only reinforces his role as a support melee. If they were meant to be a main DPS class, then sneak attack would be completely useless. So even the PrE class' own abilities should indicate that it isn't meant as a main DPS role.

So I ask again, for the third time:
Why do you feel that a monk *SHOULD* do more DPS than a rogue does?

[gurgar78]

People complain that all those little goodies that a Monk gets don't matter, that they're inconsequential.

More importantly, just because they're inconsequential for the 5% of the game that you* feel the need to base class comparison on, does not mean that devs can completely ignore that the class has those abilities.

*You meaning the people complaining about the nerf. I was just Calebro's post to chime in.

[Cyr]

Ninja Spy is not broken. It is one of the best PrE's in the game. Shadow fade is the best defensive ability any PrE grants as it works in epics. The 3d6 sneak attack damage is incredible also.

The ToD nerf did not make ninja spy any worse. I will always think it was a poor idea, but it is not ninja spy.

Simply put next tier of ninja spy will probably be good just like the first two tiers. My guess....

Ninja Spy 3
Cost: 2 AP
Requires: no more feats then before a couple dumb enhancements that no one would take otherwise
Benefit: +3d6 Sneak Attack Damage, you may use any of your unarmed only attacks with short swords, some token bonus to ToD save DC

I also strongly suspect that six months or so down the line we will have another ToD nerf which scales damage based upon monk level killing any reason for a dark monk multi-class build.

[Fecerak]

My guess at III

+3d6 SA
+2 skills
Some special ability that is kinda cool, but not really that good, like... I dunno actually, but well, time will tell. May not actually be any ability at all
And lastly, all SS are automatically vorpals.

Thats my guess at III at least.

[PlagueMerc]

My issue is the constant changing of all the Pre's. First off, lets argue Pre (Assassin vs. Ninja Spy). Assassin gets an auto kill effect much like quivering palm. Ninja spy gives the sneak attack much like rogues base sneak attack skill. I don't believe ToD was meant to put monk as the main dps, and that is why it was treated the way it was in the recent update, was to try and re-balance monks with other melee, but I still have an issue with Calebro stating that rogue is higher dps than monk, and that rogue has less talent than monk. If you look at the original context of rogues they are self support in many cases. Evasion, while both used on monk and rogue, is boosted by the natural need for dex in a rogue for skills. But when you look at the Assassin Pre, is it self serving or party support? Don't argue rogue base versus Ninja Spy Pre, argue Pre vs. Pre. Base classes were set up with an intended effect from pen and paper, but modified for this game. The same Prestige enhancements are a secondary attempt at allowing people to modify the original class, without trying to make additional class templates for prestige classes.

I have looked at the base damage of twf vs. hand to hand, and yes, base monk does get better damage before sneak attack, or anything else is worked in. However, Pre's are meant to set characters apart, both in class, but between classes. The original poster opted to add a suggestion, and some people, including Calebro, proceeded to suggest that monk alone, should be sufficient for play, and that the class isn't meant as support. Yes, I read the comments, a couple times in fact, and all I saw was a rogue player who while stating Rogues are better dps'ers, seems to think monk already has more advantages. If this is the case, why argue against monk improvements, while saying rogue is superior?

I started off playing a light monk, switched to dark, and now respec'd to light. The main reason, was because compared to the assassin Pre, I was able to rival in kills and damage. Now, one of my special attacks has been reduced in overall effectiveness, and damage capability. I think Ninja Spy, like Shintao Monk did, needs some reworking.

Don't argue base class against Pre's, argue Pre vs. Pre, or base vs. base. You start muddying the argument. While I don't agree with the original posters suggestions, I do agree there needs to be some reworking.

Leave tier 1, modify tier two to maybe include a poison effect like snake blood oil or burning blood, and give a tier three that might add deception, or something similar. Nothing major, just perhaps something to liven up combat a bit.

[sirdanile]

Er... ninja spy is just fine...?
It would be good to get t-3 though...

[Calebro]

all I saw was a rogue player who while stating Rogues are better dps'ers, seems to think monk already has more advantages. If this is the case, why argue against monk improvements, while saying rogue is superior?

I have played monks to cap, both light and dark.
I have played rogues to cap.
I have played, and play as my main, a monk/rogue multiclass.

Under optimal conditions, rogues do more DPS. This is a fact. Under non-optimal conditions, monks do more DPS. This is also a fact. I never said that rogues were superior. However, I certainly do think that monks have more advantages, and by a large margin I might add, PrE's or not.
The issue that I have is that the OP claims that monks should do more DPS than rogues do. And while I have asked three times over the past 4 days for anyone to explain why they thought this, no one has answered.
It's not that no one has answered to my satisfaction, no one has given any answer at all.
That speaks volumes, don't you think?

[jkm]

calebro - rogues only get 4 class feats (10, 13, 16, 19)

honestly, i think the escalating sneak attack on this PrE is assinine. tier 2 is the same as taking 5 levels of rogue damage wise and if you add 3d6 at tier 3 you'll be at the same as 11 levels of rogue.

lets compare assassin 3 to ninja spy 3 (forecast)

rogue gets 3d6 sneak attack + poisons + sneak mode only death attack + vorpal on a 20 sneak attack

monk gets 6d6 sneak attack + 25% incorporeal + martial feat + water walking + impr crit feat + whatever they get at 18.

[knobaroo]

Ok, so, why do we really need to fix dark monks?
I still enjoy playing my dark monk. No one likes being hit with a nerf-bat, but IMHO, Tod was way overpowered. (Can you say double, double strike)
We also get a nice bonus with touch of despair (25%), negative dam, that adds to Tod.
I will say if they were to make a change to the class, is to make short swords more viable. I can't see why a dark monk would want to use short swords over fists, perhaps I'm missing some thing there, but seems to be a perk that is of little value, to me. Any one use it? When, and why?

[Nines9]

You use shortswords for smiting/banishing, that's about it. Tod was overpowered, but a big part of that was a bug allowing more then 3 strikes, and seemingly higher percentages on the the third. That was meant to be fixed, but then they went overboard, it's essentially a fix and 2 nerfs. The save I can understand, the typing is the issue.

I'm also not for overbuffing ninja spy. Perhaps a better way to handle ns3 would be to take 1d6 of the 2d6 sa dmg from ns2 and put it on ns3. Then add an enhancement in ns2 to change the energy type of tod to something else. Then perhaps add something like deception to ns3. I'd still prefer they kept tod as it was before (minus the extra procs) and scaled it per lvl, 100% on main, 80% on offhand with appropriate feats, 10% if in wind stance. As it is now the change primarily hurts late lvls, and not much has changed around the lvls you acquire it. I don't see that happening, just wishful thinking I guess.

Calebro you're not getting an answer because this thread isn't about balancing a monk against a rogue, it's about balancing out the monk pre's (let's be realistic, they're essentially 2 monk classes). I could ask you the exact opposite question; Why do you think rogues should out dps a dark monk? They're 2 significantly different classes, both of which have their own unique little tricks. However if you build both towards pure dps, the rogue is gonna win hands down, and you've already said as much, so I'm not sure what your major malfunction is.

[jkm]

honestly, if they put a +1 crit mod on the shortsword at tier 3, it would be the same as a khopesh. anything that makes other weapons as viable as khopeshes is good.

if they did that, they'd need to drop the sneak attack damage to 1d6 per tier

[Soleran]

honestly, if they put a +1 crit mod on the shortsword at tier 3, it would be the same as a khopesh. anything that makes other weapons as viable as khopeshes is good.

if they did that, they'd need to drop the sneak attack damage to 1d6 per tier

And once you got 2 tod burst rings the shortswords would still be worse then you using wraps, I don't think that goal should be to enhance shortswords with the ninja line at tier3 since it's just not going to truly enhance a dark monks dps or functionality.

[AaronB]

I'd like to see a Ninja Spy III that isn't overpowered (x4 crit fists would be ridiculous), but that keeps with the ninja themes and adds something to the class. It should be good enough to make up for the slightly excessive nerf of ToD. The most comparable PrE is Assassin III, which is really nice and adds an insta-kill ability. My thoughts:

+ 3d6 sneak attack damage (this fits the theme of the PrE)
+ 2 to monk ability DC's (Helps ToD land for full damage a little more, particularly in Amrath where monks are likely to be after lvl 18. Adding a +1 DC boost to Ninja Spy II would be good also. This would really help balanced builds with moderate wis)

Those two abilities would be good. For a little something extra, it would be thematically appropriate to have something related to stealth. Preferably something that also makes dark monks desirable in raids. Perhaps something like:
While sneak attacking, vorpal strikes cripple the target; slowing attack speed by 10% (works on bosses). Such a low proc rate and fairly small debuff wouldn't be worth much against trash mobs, but every bit helps against bosses.

Additionally, if the devs want to make short swords a somewhat viable option, they need a significant boost.
+1 crit multiplier with short swords, short swords count as vorpal, monk abilities can be used with short swords; things like that. In fact, OP as it sounds, granting all those would probably still leave short swords inferior to fists given ToD rings and scaling damage.

[PlagueMerc]

Sadly though, short swords still lack damage compared to hand to hand. The amount of damage I do with hands, compared to the possibility of a vorpal crit kill, doesn't seem worth it to me. Quick suggestion from me:

Tier 1: leave as is

Tier 2: drop sneak attack bonus to +1d6 for a total of +2d6 by this tier.

Tier 3: +1d6 sneak attack, and add like snakeblood greenoil, or burning blood, or improve the crit for shortswords by 1, to x3 crit.

Shintao get to bypass damage reductions as a full time ability, and ToD was a way to make up for Ninja Spy not getting past damage reductions, while having to not only build up Ki points, but also staying alive long enough in some instances.

Perhaps instead of reducing ToD's effectiveness, perhaps it should have been restricted to one hit, and not be effected by the new double hit effects. One use of 50 ki, produces one non-savable non-typed 500 damage hit.

Also to Calebro: Perhaps nobody has answered you, because you are set to private and we can not see what your current build, or other character options are. The game isn't always an optimal condition, so that means that more often then not, monks out dps rogues. Second, dual wielding weapon base damage depending on the weapons, vs the increasing hand to hand damage of the monk, means monks should be higher dps'ers than rogues. Rogues are offset with sneak attack, and high skill numbers to be a support role, while monk both pen and paper is designed to be a damage dealer in the hand to hand area. Why should someone play a barbarian? Rage, greataxes, and sheer damage. Why play a fighter? Tons of combat feats, kensai or stalwart, depending on what your preference is, and the ability to do a lot of damage with just about every weapon in the game. Why play a monk? The ability to self heal, boost party damage, and kill stuff with your bare hands. Or for light side monks, small heals, removal of harmful effects, and raise dead.

Rogue was meant to be support (locks, traps, and sneak attack damage), monk was meant to be an unarmed form of combat and less main support. This is your answer to why monk should be a better dps'er than rogue. Rogue relies on optimal conditions for sneak attack to make up for lack of base damage, while monk does a consistant amount through optimal and non-optimal. Now, your question has been answered directly, the only question is now, not if it has been answered, but if it has been answered to your satisfaction.

[voodoogroves]

I wouldn't be against short sword boosting, but any additions there would kinda need to be serious if they are meant to overtake handwraps.

Like shortswords come with free cake. That may work.




I wouldn't mind a PRE at 3 that increases the crit multiplier or range of kamas, shuriken and shortswords (not wraps - madness lies there and I'd prefer my ninjas sane, unlike my bards).

[gurgar78]

I wouldn't be against short sword boosting, but any additions there would kinda need to be serious if they are meant to overtake handwraps.

Like shortswords come with free cake. That may work.




I wouldn't mind a PRE at 3 that increases the crit multiplier or range of kamas, shuriken and shortswords (not wraps - madness lies there and I'd prefer my ninjas sane, unlike my bards).

An increase to the crit range on shortswords might be preferable since even at x3, you won't use shortswords in lieu of handwraps for DPS. Since shortswords are primarily used for on-crit effects, it seems more useful to give a crit range increase with them, such as with Kensai III.

[voodoogroves]

Yep. Vaulting them to the DPS of handwraps would require quite a bit of cake. And/or pie.

But we can make them useful.




Given the flavor of the PRE, a boost to shortswords (crit range or multiplier) and an additional stealth enhancement would be solid enough. Hide in Plain Sight maybe?