Repairing Ninja Spy PRE ... brainstorm session.

[Drfirewater79]

OK shintao rebirth is awesome ... aside from the restricted usefulness which is likely to make them completely useless in most content because MOST content is not filled with tainted creatures and almost all the new content cept the raid has NO TAINTED creatures what so ever in it.

all that aside.... with the TOD nerf lowering dark monk dps significantly I thought maybe we should start discussing ways to make ninja spy better.

Currently they get

Sneak attack damage boost which is nice and scales with each tier

Shadow Fade technique which adds 25% incorprality (and is suppost to stack with blur and i believe it does) and temp invisibility for 1 min

walk on water ... which doesnt work in 90% of the world ... but is good for abbot ... not that dark monks will ever be invited to abbot since we cannt help with dps at all

..........

I think a series of techniques should be added much like was to shintao ....

But keep in mind DEV team ... that the reason ToD was overpowered was not because it did so much damage .. but because it did massive damage at lvl 9 at lvl 18+ it was balanced out with fighters (who easily can do 100-300 points of damage per hit if built for dps) and as it is that dark monks are a melee dps class balancing them means allowing the to do SIMILAR damage vs all mobs INCLUDING RAID BOSSES.

here are my suggestions (i am open to people saying why they think something wont work ... but please be polite about it AND come up with something better as an alternative)

not thinking all of them but on there own adds some decent dps to a melee dps class that is severly lacking as is.

1) a crit multiplier tiered increase....

ninja spy II increase by 1 (x3) 1 ap cost
ninja spy III increase by 1 (x4) 2 ap cost

our crit dps goes up which really is the only time we do any dps as is .. and we would still be far behind epic weapons and some greensteel for over all dps on average.

2) ninja spy II Curse the uncurseable

this power allows for monk curses to effect mobs regularly immune to curse effects (aka raid bosses) 1 ap cost

this would allow us to use anti casting debuffs and damage amplification debuffs against raid bosses which would make having at least 1 dark monk just as important as the 1 light monk and 1 bard when doing harder difficulty raids which currently are super uber high dps only. In combination with idea 1 these two abilities would on there own pretty much balance out dps for dark monks who take the ninja spy path as we would be just above rouges and still slightly behind thf and twf fighters and barbs.

3) ninja spy III hide in plain sight 2 ap cost

This ability allows a ninja spy monk at tier III to always add sneak attack damage to his attacks SO LONG as he is in Shadow Fade mode regardless of if he is invisible or not and also allows sneak attack damage on mobs that generally are immune to sneak attack damage.

this would allow monks to do some decent dps so long as they remember to keep up there shadow fade. As ninja spys get most of there current damage from sneak attacks ... but if they do get the agro of a mob are then doing almost half the dps.
(i would also add this might be a cool thing to add to one of the rouge pres as well which ever is the lowest dps one)

4) ninja spy II sacrificial Touch of undeath 2 ap cost.

While this mode is active your ToD attack does damage vs mobs regularly immune to negative energy damage. This effect will not however bypass the effects of Death ward but will allow ToD attack to work against undead and constructs.

this would make dark monks useful in abbot and would mean they are not useless in construct heavy missions (like epic von 4) and vs portals in vale and shroud and bastion where they are a big help.

----------------------------

hope others can come up with other cool ideas and i hope we can get some feedback from eladrin and others working on monks with there thoughts about if our ideas are sound or slightly - drastically over powered with examples.

also would be good to know what stuff simply CANNOT be done due to limitations of the engine which many of us non programers wouldnt understand without being told.

[Darkrok]

I'm still thinking about a lot of the suggestions but I'd say the x4 crit multiplier is too much. Just to stay with the current flavor of the short sword enhancements I'd recommend that Ninja Spy III give a x3 modifier to the crit profile on Short Swords. It fits thematically with Ninja Spy providing Short Sword (but NOT unarmed) bonuses and really fits in with T2 being Improved Critical: Piercing with Short Swords.

I would say that having Deception baked into attacks while in Shadow Fade would be fair. I think that should honestly start at Ninja Spy I. Just as Shintao monks are receiving the ability to use more favorable weapons thanks to damage bypass Ninja Spies should not have to use deception weapons to get their sneak damage most of the time.

Dark monks can already lower fortification but I don't agree with letting them sneak attack sneak-immune enemies. If that every becomes available Rogues should be at the front of the line for that.

Finally, ToD not working on Undead/Constructs was a design decision. I think it's a non-starter to get that added back in via enhancements.

Everything I've mentioned here is NOT sufficient for T3. T1 should get deception baked into Shadow Fade. T3 would be getting x3 modifier for Short Swords and presumably another 2d6 or 3d6 sneak damage. That's not enough for the PrE. But I think that's a good start.

[Darkrok]

Another interesting thought wrt Shadow Fade getting 'baked in' melee abilities.

Tier1: Deception
Tier2: Destruction
Tier3: Improved Destruction

That would honestly be a nice upgrade to the PrE. Give them 3d6 sneak dice at T3, +1 crit multiplier with short swords (word it this way just in case there's ever a x3 short sword), and the tiered baked in abilities for Shadow Fade and I think you're most of the way there. What they're lacking at that point is one useful gimmick at tier 3. Light monks get a single-target ranged stun. How about a single target, longer-term hold? Put that crit multiplier to use!

[Alintalkin]

Teir 3 would be awesome if it had the following affect: When centered your monk weapons have a +1 crit multiplier. Which would simply be a buff that when you are centered (using Short swords, HW, Kama, QS, or Longsword if you have the feat for it). It could even be a effect seperate from the pre. call it something like Ninja Critical strikes: (insert monk weapon here) cost 2AP requires: Ninja spy III (and in the case of Long swords WSS) and have the teir add more sneak attack damage and a competence bonus to speed with short swords.

it would allow for Ninja spy to become a powerful Pre, and have a buff to all monk weapons while still buffing the Short sword more keeping the spirit of the pre. Oh and a destruction effect on attacks (after all a ninja spy should lower their enemies defenses) would be nice.

[Darkrok]

Teir 3 would be awesome if it had the following affect: When centered your monk weapons have a +1 crit multiplier. Which would simply be a buff that when you are centered (using Short swords, HW, Kama, QS, or Longsword if you have the feat for it). It could even be a effect seperate from the pre. call it something like Ninja Critical strikes: (insert monk weapon here) cost 2AP requires: Ninja spy III (and in the case of Long swords WSS) and have the teir add more sneak attack damage and a competence bonus to speed with short swords.

it would allow for Ninja spy to become a powerful Pre, and have a buff to all monk weapons while still buffing the Short sword more keeping the spirit of the pre. Oh and a destruction effect on attacks (after all a ninja spy should lower their enemies defenses) would be nice.

I'm with gurgar on this one. I'm not comfortable with Ninja Spy turning fists into a x3 multiplier. Down that path lies madness.

[gurgar78]

1) a crit multiplier tiered increase....

ninja spy II increase by 1 (x3) 1 ap cost
ninja spy III increase by 1 (x4) 2 ap cost

our crit dps goes up which really is the only time we do any dps as is .. and we would still be far behind epic weapons and some greensteel for over all dps on average.

I'm not really sure you understand how the combat mechanics work in this game. You actually do the most damage of any class when crits are a non-factor. You seem to have it backward. Giving a x3 multiplier would be incredibly powerful and would land dark monks in the #1 DPS spot on all mobs, not just 100% fort mobs. A x4 multiplier is straight out. Having the highest base damage with the highest crit multiplier would be just silly. No other class could even come close.

[Darkrok]

I'm not really sure you understand how the combat mechanics work in this game. You actually do the most damage of any class when crits are a non-factor. You seem to have it backward. Giving a x3 multiplier would be incredibly powerful and would land dark monks in the #1 DPS spot on all mobs, not just 100% fort mobs. A x4 multiplier is straight out. Having the highest base damage with the highest crit multiplier would be just silly. No other class could even come close.

Which is why I limited the x3 in my suggestion to a sub-optimal weapon that's already part of the Ninja Spy PrE - the Short Sword. You're absolutely correct that x3 multiplier IS a big deal on crittable enemies. Putting that on to short swords at Ninja Spy III would make them competitive with handwraps and most likely be the go-to weapon selection if a mob can be crit.

[gurgar78]

Which is why I limited the x3 in my suggestion to a sub-optimal weapon that's already part of the Ninja Spy PrE - the Short Sword. You're absolutely correct that x3 multiplier IS a big deal on crittable enemies. Putting that on to short swords at Ninja Spy III would make them competitive with handwraps and most likely be the go-to weapon selection if a mob can be crit.

I actually like that.

+1 to you, sir.

[BucMan55]

The prestige enhancement makes short swords a ki weapon. How about making them actually useful through other enhancements available to dark monks? First step is to allow ToD to work with it. I think it's strange that at level 6 dark monks get to use short swords but by level 9 with ToD (and after fists are upgraded at 8) they are totally gimp save special effects that are unavailable to handwraps.

[rimble]

The prestige enhancement makes short swords a ki weapon. How about making them actually useful through other enhancements available to dark monks? First step is to allow ToD to work with it. I think it's strange that at level 6 dark monks get to use short swords but by level 9 with ToD (and after fists are upgraded at 8) they are totally gimp save special effects that are unavailable to handwraps.

Agreed. I've been silently cringing at the Short Sword improvements being mentioned...Ninja Spy = ToD = Handwraps...

I really don't feel I'm in tune with what the devs want Ninja Spy to be...I'm coming up blank on anything unique to recommend...

...

[Soleran]

Which is why I limited the x3 in my suggestion to a sub-optimal weapon that's already part of the Ninja Spy PrE - the Short Sword. You're absolutely correct that x3 multiplier IS a big deal on crittable enemies. Putting that on to short swords at Ninja Spy III would make them competitive with handwraps and most likely be the go-to weapon selection if a mob can be crit.

I suppose as a brand new lvl 20 monk that would be great but once you get burst rings I doubt highly a x3 crit would do squat to make short swords comparable to handwraps.

I always thought for the final ninja prestige they should either increase the crit range by one so 18-20 crit with improved crit bludg or boost the damage by 1 so it would be 19-20 crit x3 damage.

[Varrek]

I vaguely remember a feat from pnp that adds sneak attack damage on crits which I always kinda liked. I'd like to see an ability like that for tier 3 along with 3d6 more sneak attack dice and some buff to short swords.

[Scraap]

Well, if they want to avoid damage and keep with the general notion of association with curses... there's no weapons in-game at present that attack int, cha, or wis, and that last is the source of will saves. Say, 5-10% chance to reduce 1 of those randomly on-hit or on crit?

[Martdon]

A thought I had for Tier III is something like this.

1)An additional 2d6 Sneak attack damage (Bringing the total to 5d6) and +2 to Bluff, Hide and Move Silently

2)Aura of Death or Darkness (or something Evil muwahahaha) Anyways, something like Shadow Fade, but can do a couple of things. (Depending on how overpowering each would be)
- You are enshroud and death/darkness, and strikes fear into your opponents. (Grants the Fearsome ability while activated. I know not everyone likes Fearsome, but hey it kind of works with the class)
Or whenever a monster strikes you, you deal 1d8 negative energy damage to it.
Or the darkness route, whenever you land a critical hit (or a vorpal) your enemy becomes enshroud in darkness, making him vulnerable to critical hits.

3)Dark Cunning. Adds your INT bonus to your damage to critical hits (before modifier) and the DC of your Dark Monk attacks (Touch of Death, Fists of Darkness)
-I know, on an already ability starved class, this wouldn't be a big hit, but it seems like it could work for the class. I can see a bunch of dark monks studying death, and how to kill things more efficiently.

or

Dark Fortitude. Same thing as above, but adding your CON bonus to DC. This would be more, allowing dark powers to use your body to do its work, or something like that. Or even Touch of Death gets twice your CON bonus to DC at the cost of 10hp. (and 50ki still of course) This would be more like you actually using your life energy to cause damage.

So Ninja Spy III would give you something like this.
-Additional 2d6 Sneak Attack Damage. and +2 to Bluff, Hide and Move Silently
-Aura of Darkness
-Dark Fortitude

And (because it has been mentioned a bunch and seems like a good idea) something added to Short Swords, think that is a good idea, still thinking on that.

[SINIBYTE]

But keep in mind DEV team ... that the reason ToD was overpowered was not because it did so much damage .. but because it did massive damage at lvl 9 at lvl 18+ it was balanced out with fighters (who easily can do 100-300 points of damage per hit if built for dps) and as it is that dark monks are a melee dps class balancing them means allowing the to do SIMILAR damage vs all mobs INCLUDING RAID BOSSES.

Actually no developer has said why it was nerfed. We're still waiting for an answer. Any reason for the nerf currently being discussed is theory and conjecture.

[Chai]

Actually no developer has said why it was nerfed. We're still waiting for an answer. Any reason for the nerf currently being discussed is theory and conjecture.

I see this statement every single time something gets the nerf bat, and grin each time I see it.

We all know why it was nerfed, the same way we all know why twitch was nerfed even though they never came out and said it was a twitch nerf or that twitch wasnt intended. This is the same reason spaz attacking was nerfed back in the day when they never literally gave us a reason for that either.

LOL @ conjecture. Put your DM hat on and figure it out. You and a few other conjecture addicts might be waiting for an answer. The rest of us already know.

Are you still waiting for an answer on spaz attacking from late 2006?

[Calebro]

we would be just above rouges and still slightly behind thf and twf fighters and barbs.

First of all, a well built rogue will out DPS a fighter or barb every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm not going to get into that right now.

Right now, I'd like to know what makes you believe that you *SHOULD* be above rogues.

Monks get more class abilities and inherent goodies than rogues do.
Monks get more HP than rogues do.
Monks get a better BaB than rogues do.
Monks have a much easier time gaining a respectable AC than rogues do.
etc, etc, etc

Since the rogues get less goodies, they should have more DPS. It's a trade off. Squishy rogue with less goodies = massive killer, and that's the way it is, and that's the way it should stay.

I understand that you want monks to be the best at everything, but with all the freebies that they get, they aren't supposed to be the best at everything. They're a defensive/utility support DPS class, and all of those natural defenses, and all of those inherent class abilities means that they should absolutely not be top tier DPS.

[Soleran]

First of all, a well built rogue will out DPS a fighter or barb every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm not going to get into that right now.

Right now, I'd like to know what makes you believe that you *SHOULD* be above rogues.

Monks get more class abilities and inherent goodies than rogues do.
Monks get more HP than rogues do.
Monks get a better BaB than rogues do.
Monks have a much easier time gaining a respectable AC than rogues do.
etc, etc, etc

Since the rogues get less goodies, they should have more DPS. It's a trade off. Squishy rogue with less goodies = massive killer, and that's the way it is, and that's the way it should stay.

I understand that you want monks to be the best at everything, but with all the freebies that they get, they aren't supposed to be the best at everything. They're a defensive/utility support DPS class, and all of those natural defenses, and all of those inherent class abilities means that they should absolutely not be top tier DPS.

Is this your counter to everything dps related because it's just bad. Rogues get umd which overcome bab and armor is a who cares unless you are the tank blah blah blah really man if you waant to counter an argument realize that this game is based on end raids not a free FF ability.

[Calebro]

Is this your counter to everything dps related because it's just bad. Rogues get umd which overcome bab and armor is a who cares unless you are the tank blah blah blah really man if you waant to counter an argument realize that this game is based on end raids not a free FF ability.

You can have whatever opinion you choose for my views.
At least I spelled mine out. All you've done is say "your argument sucks" which doesn't exactly convince me that I'm wrong.

[BLU3_FR0G]

Add to Ninja Spy 2 because Shintao gets 2 abilites at tier 2, so should the Ninja. Even if it just acts like Sap, or Sliceing blow, call it Touch of Blood or something.

Ninja 3- Touch of Soul, acts like Trap the Soul spell. - 30 sec cooldown - 70ki cost maybe 80ki. Not so over powered, but respectable. Add a save if need be. Will or Fort.

Just what I think would be cool.