Double TR Half-Orc: Pure vs. 18/2 Fighter

[Boromirs]

I'm actually not sure about this as a blanket statement, the pure barb will do more dps over a single fight that lasts infinite time, but the splash has more dps while haste boosted no?

No, the 15% fighter haste is being over-hyped. People haven't yet tried out the changes to THF, the 10% increase to glancing blow and 5% proc for specials ON EVERY SINGLE HIT, will more then make up for the DPS loss. 6 casts at 20 seconds is 2 minutes of 15% DPS increase. Its a tough call I would say it's a wash....BUT throw in the extra strength and rage/DR/etc. and I'm leaning toward pure barb. Plus don't forget you're going to have to re-activate this EVERY 20 seconds, there is a slight pause during activation processes and thus losses of DPS.

HOWEVER, stunning blow is the determining factor. Free feat, stun blow (the +1 DC is meaningless to a Horc Barb) is a pretty big incentive. BUT its not like you can forgo toughness for Stun Blow on a pure Barb (it would be about 60 pt HP difference between a pure and 18/2..which translates into ...who cares?)

[Consumer]

No, the 15% fighter haste is being over-hyped. People haven't yet tried out the changes to THF, the 10% increase to glancing blow and 5% proc for specials ON EVERY SINGLE HIT, will more then make up for the DPS loss. 6 casts at 20 seconds is 2 minutes of 15% DPS increase. Its a tough call I would say it's a wash....BUT throw in the extra strength and rage/DR/etc. and I'm leaning toward pure barb. Plus don't forget you're going to have to re-activate this EVERY 20 seconds, there is a slight pause during activation processes and thus losses of DPS.

HOWEVER, stunning blow is the determining factor. Free feat, stun blow (the +1 DC is meaningless to a Horc Barb) is a pretty big incentive. BUT its not like you can forgo toughness for Stun Blow on a pure Barb (it would be about 60 pt HP difference between a pure and 18/2..which translates into ...who cares?)

Fighter haste boost I gives ~30 extra DPS, HO get 3 extra action boosts giving 8 boosts total (4 mins of constant boosting), it is not over hyped.

You continue to post in threads involving DPS with no idea what you are talking about, please stop.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Fighter haste boost I gives ~30 extra DPS, HO get 3 extra action boosts giving 8 boosts total (4 mins of constant boosting), it is not over hyped.

You continue to post in threads involving DPS with no idea what you are talking about, please stop.

Actually it's not 4 minutes of constant boosting, because you have 10 seconds of cooldown between every boost (and they last only 20 seconds) meaning that you actually get an average of only 10% over those 4 minutes. It's not like the pure fighter's 30% (translating into 20% over the 4 minutes). In this case I would agree that this is a toss off.

[Boromirs]

Fighter haste boost I gives ~30 extra DPS, HO get 3 extra action boosts giving 8 boosts total (4 mins of constant boosting), it is not over hyped.

You continue to post in threads involving DPS with no idea what you are talking about, please stop.

15% haste boost on top of haste is just an additional 15% haste over and beyond what you would normally do...it would never translates into ~30 extra DPS seeing how people have drastically varying degrees of DPS toward endgame...hence 15% increase of YOUR current DPS is far more accurate.

[Consumer]

Actually it's not 4 minutes of constant boosting, because you have 10 seconds of cooldown between every boost (and they last only 20 seconds) meaning that you actually get an average of only 10% over those 4 minutes. It's not like the pure fighter's 30% (translating into 20% over the 4 minutes). In this case I would agree that this is a toss off.

If you want to pick holes you would have pointed out the it also requires an activation time of 1.2 seconds without quick draw and 0.6 seconds with quick draw, therefore its not 10% and is considered 4 mins of constant boosting because that is how long 8 haste boosts will last for.

0.6+19.4+10=30

30*8=240

240/60=4 minutes

[Consumer]

15% haste boost on top of haste is just an additional 15% haste over and beyond what you would normally do...it would never translates into ~30 extra DPS seeing how people have drastically varying degrees of DPS toward endgame...hence 15% increase of YOUR current DPS is far more accurate.

~30

~ = approximately

approximately = close to; around; roughly or in the region of

That little sign takes care of that argument.

[quityourjobs]

If you want to pick holes you would have pointed out the it also requires an activation time of 1.2 seconds without quick draw and 0.6 seconds with quick draw, therefore its not 10% and is considered 4 mins of constant boosting because that is how long 8 haste boosts will last for.

0.6+19.4+10=30

30*8=240

240/60=4 minutes

If for some crazy reason you take Quick Draw on this splash, each haste lasts 19.4 seconds. The 10 seconds you counted in the haste time is cooldown, you're not actually swinging faster during that period.

19.4 * 8 = 155.2 seconds

A non quick draw Barb would last:

18.8 * 8 = 150.4 seconds

2.5 minutes of haste.

[Hadrian]

No, the 15% fighter haste is being over-hyped. People haven't yet tried out the changes to THF, the 10% increase to glancing blow and 5% proc for specials ON EVERY SINGLE HIT, will more then make up for the DPS loss.

That doesn't seem to make much sense mathematically. Let's look at it very basically for a moment.

Since the haste boost is active approximately 2/3 of the time, you're getting rougly a 10% damage increase out of this for the overall effect.

You want to compare 10% more base damage on glancing blows only and a 5% greater chance for effect procs on glancing blows, and conclude that this will "more than make up for the" haste boost.

Consider that the haste boost will make those glancing blows, on average, come 10% faster, thus giving you approximately the same base damage and likely more special effect procs in a given period of time. The cause of those glancing blows coming 10% faster is that your normal swings also come 10% faster.

It's not difficult to conclude from this that your claim cannot be correct.

Also, the added 4 strength is nice for the pure barbarian, but is countered for important encounters with the paladin past life +3 damage and to-hit that just doesn't fit on the pure barb. So the main difference is that the 18/2 offers significantly more damage for "boss battles" while being a little weaker against normal trash when he doesn't need to use his boosts. The high stunning blow DC available to both build options minimizes this drawback.

[ddobard1]

I feel the Pure is better for Boss fights, these fights usually take more than 2 minutes and the main advantage of the splash build (Stunning Blow) pales here.
Where the splash could be better is in tactical battles against hard non boss Foes. There the battles are shorter for your boosts apply.
I think boosts are very useful when you face critical moments like low health or an effect on you like curse healing. Boosts in Boss fights only better used in defensive or terminal situations like the Boss is 1% health but the Party is also almost out of resources, so let's try everything or you aren't capable of facing the Boss's damage even with healing (Curses, Bees, etc.), then a Sprint boost, or Saves, or AC boost so you can loose aggro to others for some time.

[Warinx]

What about the 1.2 seconds you're doing 0 DPS?

30 second cycle, 100 dps example.

Example pure barb
30secx100dps = 3000damage

18/2
0dps 1.2 sec
2162=18.8sec x115dps
1000=10sec x100dps
3162 total

So not accounting for Barb Capstone, the fighter splash does 5.4% more damage while spamming haste (3162/3000=1.054)

So is 2 strength and 10% glancing blow > 5.4% damage?

[Carpone]

So is 2 strength and 10% glancing blow > 5.4% damage?

It depends on the length of the fight. Most fights in DDO are short enough where Haste Boost is superior. Once you get into extended fights like elite ToD with the extra chest or epic Devil's Assault, Haste Boost runs out of gas far too soon. Even Orcish Action Boost enhancements and Verik's set aren't enough.

[fjrrider]

HI,

thanks for the post, most informative.

the thing i am wondering since i'm new to multiclassing is when CAN you take the 2 levels of fighter? I am already at lvl 1 barb with my TR and still wondering about fitting 2 lvls of fighter there

thanks

[ddobard1]

I would take the Fighter levels at level 2 and level 3 to get the feats as fast as possible.

[Hadrian]

So is 2 strength and 10% glancing blow > 5.4% damage?

I did say I was comparing it in very simplified form, but you can take ratios from there to quickly compare more detailed adjustments.

You're calculating a 5% overall DPS benefit. Would you rather have 5% to every hit or 10% only to glancing blows? 5% better proc rate only on glancing blows or 5% more glancing blows with the unbuffed proc rate, plus 5% more normal hits that always have the effects?

Still obvious. Break it down to its simplest components and it's easy to see at a "glance".

As far as the strength difference, do you want +1 str mod (possibly +2 as it's 3 strength difference between the builds in total, not 2) all the time, or +3 damage and to-hit for 2+ minutes as a short term buff? I think both are reasonably comparable. The +3/+3 past life pally buff can be kept up for 6:48, and is the superior choice for boss fights, in my opinion.

Also, in just the 30 second comparison you're going to be boosting before you're in melee range to avoid that wasted 1.2 seconds.

[Consumer]

I would take the Fighter levels at level 2 and level 3 to get the feats as fast as possible.

You in fact want to put off the Fighter levels, you have limited rage early on and want to get as many as possible as soon as possible. You don't need the extra feats at 2 and 3 anyway.

[fjrrider]

You in fact want to put off the Fighter levels, you have limited rage early on and want to get as many as possible as soon as possible. You don't need the extra feats at 2 and 3 anyway.

agreed

thanks for the advice

[Warinx]

You in fact want to put off the Fighter levels, you have limited rage early on and want to get as many as possible as soon as possible. You don't need the extra feats at 2 and 3 anyway.

Level 8 for improved crit and lvl 11 for Greater two handed fighting might be good levels to put your fighter levels.