Double TR Half-Orc: Pure vs. 18/2 Fighter

[Hadrian]

I have an old warforged barbarian that I have not been playing much recently. Half-Orcs are finally here, and I am ready to TR him and finish his build.

A lot has changed since I first made him in mod 5, and I am now trying to weigh the options I have for a completed build. The difference in the options are basically in level split and feats taken, so I will focus this post on those differences and skip the unimportant details. In both cases I'd have similar starting stats and FB 3.

Option #1: Pure Barbarian

Feats (in no particular order):
1) THF
3) Past Life (Barb)
6)ITHF
9) IC: Slashing
12) GTHF (or stunning blow)
15) PA
18) Cleave

Also, I'll have the benefit of the capstone and the final tier of rage upgrade if I stay pure.

Option #2: 18 Barbarian/2 Fighter

Feats (in no particular order):
1) THF
3) Past Life (Barb)
6)ITHF
9) IC: Slashing
12) GTHF
15) PA
18) Cleave
Fighter 1) Stunning Blow
Fighter 2) Past Life (Paladin)

I lose the rage and capstone bonuses, but I gain +1 str from enhancements, those two extra feats, and the first level of fighter melee alacrity boost. For those who may not be familiar, the paladin past life is +3 to-hit and damage, so equivalent to a +6 strength buff for about 2:12 per use and 3/rest.

So this works out to +4 str and +2 con against +1 str +6 temporary str and a 15% melee alacrity boost. The pure option also allows me to possibly get 4 tiers of THF (4th one being in the capstone) in exchange for stunning blow, while the 18/2 option can only choose GTHF + stunning blow.

It seems that option 2 gives significantly more DPS when buffed up fully, while option 1 doesn't rely on any short term buffs. I'd say the pure barb's slightly less peak damage bonus weighed against the fact that when the buffs wear off, he's got a slightly larger advantage would put things in favor of the pure barbarian, but the 15% melee alacrity makes it a tougher choice.

I'm looking for comments from different view points, and maybe advice on something I've missed. Please comment.

[defen]

Is cleave or the past life really preferable to toughness, especially on a toon that can count on at least 60 hp (unsure of orcish racial) worth of enhancements?

[Hadrian]

Is cleave or the past life really preferable to toughness, especially on a toon that can count on at least 60 hp (unsure of orcish racial) worth of enhancements?

Cleave is required for the Frenzied Berserker line of enhancements. Also, with the level of hit points that a barbarian reaches, 60 more HP isn't all that impressive. As long as you get a decent amount of healing amplification, you'll be just fine.

[Vanshilar]

You know, one thing I'm curious about is whether or not you can take the fighter strength enhancements as well as the half-orc strength enhancements. After all, they said something about how some of the class-specific stuff would be changed to be general (i.e. something like, instead of "rogue dex" it would be changed to "improved dex") so I don't know if the race stat enhancements are still on a separate set. I guess it should be easy to check on Lamannia. Bit busy though.

Edit: Also considered that if I understand the release notes correctly, which animations give glancing blows will remain the same as they are now. This means that GTHF is actually the best THF feat to take because not only does it increase your damage (in update 7), but it'll also give an additional glancing blow on the 3rd attack animation. So I would take it over stunning blow. Stunning blow's nice though, so kind of a difficult trade-off.

Edit2: Okay I went to Lamannia and checked. Yeah you can take both fighter strength and orcish strength. Yeah they stack.

[FuzzyDuck81]

You know, one thing I'm curious about is whether or not you can take the fighter strength enhancements as well as the half-orc strength enhancements. After all, they said something about how some of the class-specific stuff would be changed to be general (i.e. something like, instead of "rogue dex" it would be changed to "improved dex") so I don't know if the race stat enhancements are still on a separate set. I guess it should be easy to check on Lamannia. Bit busy though.

Since one is racial-based & the other class-based, they should still stack i think. As i understand it, class enhancement consolidation was more to allow PrE mixes that were previously mutually exclusive, like ninja & acrobat.

[Quikster]

You know, one thing I'm curious about is whether or not you can take the fighter strength enhancements as well as the half-orc strength enhancements. After all, they said something about how some of the class-specific stuff would be changed to be general (i.e. something like, instead of "rogue dex" it would be changed to "improved dex") so I don't know if the race stat enhancements are still on a separate set. I guess it should be easy to check on Lamannia. Bit busy though.

Edit: Also considered that if I understand the release notes correctly, which animations give glancing blows will remain the same as they are now. This means that GTHF is actually the best THF feat to take because not only does it increase your damage (in update 7), but it'll also give an additional glancing blow on the 3rd attack animation. So I would take it over stunning blow. Stunning blow's nice though, so kind of a difficult trade-off.

Edit2: Okay I went to Lamannia and checked. Yeah you can take both fighter strength and orcish strength. Yeah they stack.

Just checked to confirm for you, but the str enhancements still stack as they would currently on live.

[Quikster]

Is cleave or the past life really preferable to toughness, especially on a toon that can count on at least 60 hp (unsure of orcish racial) worth of enhancements?

Toughness has long been thought to be an optional feat for well geared barbs. Many barbs have opted out of toughness for khopesh, stunning blow or barb past life.

Cleave is not optional as its a prereq.

The past life will lose some of its luster once its fixed however.

@OP

I dunno ten. Its a tough call. I think thf took a major hit with the latest combat change, and while its getting buffed this update, im not sure its worth giving up stunning blow on a build with super strength. Its a tough call on a feat starved barb for sure.

I guess its going to depend on how you want to play it more than anything. If you are going to be willing to plant and swing most of the time, then the thf feats are prolly needed. If you are going to be moving a lot, or running a lot of elite/epic quests, stunning blow is a must imo.

As far as the split goes, Im just not sure its worth not going pure barb now. If you do go pure barb you can prolly get away without the last thf feat no matter your playstyle, and when they do eventually fix the past life feat, you can trade it out for paly past life or gthf.

[FluffyCalico]

I dunno ten. Its a tough call. I think thf took a major hit with the latest combat change, and while its getting buffed this update, im not sure its worth giving up stunning blow on a build with super strength. .

TWF took a bigger hit than THF... THF was brought up by realative comparision

[BurningDownTheHouse]

The past life will lose most (if not all) of its luster once its fixed however.

Fixed it for you.

TWF took a bigger hit than THF... THF was brought up by realative comparision

How is that relevant to the discussion?

[Hokonoso]

Is cleave or the past life really preferable to toughness, especially on a toon that can count on at least 60 hp (unsure of orcish racial) worth of enhancements?

cleave is necessary for frenzied zerker. honestly i only take toughness on a barb to get past the 10 enhancement mark, cause racial toughness gets me to the next tier and isnt totally worthless so it's worth a feat just so i dont waste enhancements lol. also wasting enhancement points on hp over dps stuff as a half-orc isnt wise imo, taking toughness allows for a 40-60 cheap hp, instead of the expensive barbarian con 1/2 cost. also the barb past-life gives 20hp as well as all the other stuff which makes it flat-out the best feat for a barb or most melee.

to answer the OP, if going 18/2 ftr go twf, it's still the best dps for many situations and beats thf by a nice big margin unless you have epic sos and fighting mobs with dr no higher than norm difficulty or no dr at all. tho i wager if the number crunchers do it up, twf barb 18/2 will prob do more dps than a esos thf barb in tod normal on horoth.

[Consumer]

cleave is necessary for frenzied zerker. honestly i only take toughness on a barb to get past the 10 enhancement mark, cause racial toughness gets me to the next tier and isnt totally worthless so it's worth a feat just so i dont waste enhancements lol. also wasting enhancement points on hp over dps stuff as a half-orc isnt wise imo, taking toughness allows for a 40-60 cheap hp, instead of the expensive barbarian con 1/2 cost. also the barb past-life gives 20hp as well as all the other stuff which makes it flat-out the best feat for a barb or most melee.

to answer the OP, if going 18/2 ftr go twf, it's still the best dps for many situations and beats thf by a nice big margin unless you have epic sos and fighting mobs with dr no higher than norm difficulty or no dr at all. tho i wager if the number crunchers do it up, twf barb 18/2 will prob do more dps than a esos thf barb in tod normal on horoth.

The TWF 18/2 can also swap to DA as the to hit penalty does not matter, he can also swap to heavy picks and has a feat to spend on IC:Piercing if he wants (although mine uses them without in epics).

The 18/2 TWF is superior and I have a build up which ill copy here for you.

18/2 Barb/Fighter

Stats

Str - 20
Dex - 15
Con - 15
Int - 6
Wis - 8
Cha - 6

Feats

1 - TWF
3 (F) - PA, Khopesh
6 - Cleave
9 - ITWF
12 - IC: Slashing
15 - GTWF
18 - Stunning Blow
20 (F) - Quick Draw/IC:Pierce

Enhancements

Fighter Haste Boost I - 1 AP
Fighter Strength I - 2 AP

Barbarian Damage Boost IV - 10 AP
Barbarian Power Rage IV - 10 AP
Barbarian Extend Rage II - 3 AP
Barbarian Extra Rage II - 3 AP
Barbarian Hardy Rage II - 3 AP
Barbarian Sprint Boost I - 1 AP
Barbarian Toughness II - 3 AP
Barbarian Power Attack III - 6 AP
Barbarian Constitution I - 2 AP
Frenzied Berserker III - 8 AP

= 52 AP

Str II - 6 AP
Half Orc Power Attack III - 6 AP
Half Orc Extra Action Boost III - 12 AP
Power Rage II - 3 AP

= 27 AP

DPS

Up to 4 mins of constant boosting for 552 DPS, after it stays at 518 DPS.

As you can see it sacrifices the excess Barb HP for more DPS. Someone mentioned somewhere that HO Power Rage cannot be taken without fury enhancements so will need to check that out. There is 1 AP spare to spend in what you want or to rebalance. For 34 pt raise the con to 16.

[Quikster]

TWF took a bigger hit than THF... THF was brought up by realative comparision

But we arent doing a relative comparison. We are comparing taking all the thf feats or not taking them, and why it might not be needed to take them all. This has absolutely nothing to do with thf vs twf, oh, and thf was not brought up by comparison if you must go there, see the esos nerf and teh removal of glancing blows while moving tyvm.

Fixed it for you.

Pretty much. At that point it will operate as an "extra" toughness feat in that it gives hp but doesnt unlock enhancements, and a hezerou cookie

How is that relevant to the discussion?

Its not relevant at all, im not sure why he brought it up.

It's a tough choice I'm facing as well. Ultimately, I think 18/2 TR beats out 20 barb TR for two reasons: Haste Boost and Stunning Blow. I'm not counting on Berserker's Fury to give a hidden STR/CON boost for much longer. All such hidden boosts once exposed get corrected by the developers.

Horc Barbarians are setup to be hate tanks, since every one of them will have Orcish Brute Fighting III (prereq for Orcish Power Rage II). Combine that with 15% incite from the Stalwart set and 10% incite from the claw set (20% for epic version), along with a large hit point pool, and you've got the perfect hate tank. Six activations of 15% haste boost is awesome, and with 66 sustained STR easily achieved, Stunning Blow (for non-raids) is immensely useful.

So is brute fighting fixed, or different for half orcs? Because you can use it while raged on live.

[Quikster]

The TWF 18/2 can also swap to DA as the to hit penalty does not matter, he can also swap to heavy picks and has a feat to spend on IC:Piercing if he wants (although mine uses them without in epics).

The 18/2 TWF is superior and I have a build up which ill copy here for you.

18/2 Barb/Fighter

Stats

Str - 20
Dex - 15
Con - 15
Int - 6
Wis - 8
Cha - 6

Feats

1 - TWF
3 (F) - PA, Khopesh
6 - Cleave
9 - ITWF
12 - IC: Slashing
15 - GTWF
18 - Stunning Blow
20 (F) - Quick Draw/IC:Pierce

Enhancements

Fighter Haste Boost I - 1 AP
Fighter Strength I - 2 AP

Barbarian Damage Boost IV - 10 AP
Barbarian Power Rage IV - 10 AP
Barbarian Extend Rage II - 3 AP
Barbarian Extra Rage II - 3 AP
Barbarian Hardy Rage II - 3 AP
Barbarian Sprint Boost I - 1 AP
Barbarian Toughness II - 3 AP
Barbarian Power Attack III - 6 AP
Barbarian Constitution I - 2 AP
Frenzied Berserker III - 8 AP

= 52 AP

Str II - 6 AP
Half Orc Power Attack III - 6 AP
Half Orc Extra Action Boost III - 12 AP
Power Rage II - 3 AP

= 27 AP

DPS

Up to 4 mins of constant boosting for 552 DPS, after it stays at 518 DPS.

As you can see it sacrifices the excess Barb HP for more DPS. Someone mentioned somewhere that HO Power Rage cannot be taken without fury enhancements so will need to check that out. There is 1 AP spare to spend in what you want or to rebalance. For 34 pt raise the con to 16.

Pretty sure the ho rage enhancement pre-req can be meet with fury, brute fighting, or xtra ab line.

[Consumer]

Pretty sure the ho rage enhancement pre-req can be meet with fury, brute fighting, or xtra ab line.

Thanks

[Vburris]

Well the bonuses from taking 2 fighter would definitely be nice, the penalty to hp is negligible so will not talk about that. I personally would go pure to try out the new THF fighting style at its full power ( if I am not mistaken the barb capstone gives a bonus to clip damage and chance to trigger weapon abilities). The clickie buffs are definitely nice for quick boosts of power, along with the +1 to str and atk speed click could be entertaining. I think this is really a potato potato ( wow that does not come out right typed)

situation. so yea that horrible mess of ramblings is my 2 cents....

edit: cleave is a requirement for frenzy

[Aaxeyu]

First thing you should consider is going pure fighter and forget about barb altogether.
But if you really want a barb you should go with the 18/2, even without a paladin past life feat it's better than going pure. With that feat the pure version looks really small.

TWF took a bigger hit than THF... THF was brought up by realative comparision

That is not true. Removing glancing blows when twitching made TWF barbarians deal more DPS than THF ones.
But half orcs damage bonus to THF will close the gap.

[Carpone]

It's a tough choice I'm facing as well. Ultimately, I think 18/2 TR beats out 20 barb TR for two reasons: Haste Boost and Stunning Blow. I'm not counting on Berserker's Fury to give a hidden STR/CON boost for much longer. All such hidden boosts once exposed get corrected by the developers.

Horc Barbarians are setup to be hate tanks, since every one of them will have Orcish Brute Fighting III (prereq for Orcish Power Rage II). Combine that with 15% incite from the Stalwart set and 10% incite from the claw set (20% for epic version), along with a large hit point pool, and you've got the perfect hate tank. Six activations of 15% haste boost is awesome, and with 66 sustained STR easily achieved, Stunning Blow (for non-raids) is immensely useful.

[Hadrian]

First thing you should consider is going pure fighter and forget about barb altogether.

It actually was the first thing I considered, but my logic for why I went barb with this build is a bit odd.

This character has weapons of different types crafted, and would ultimately like to use a SoS. The barbarian isn't weapon restricted, and so it won't get in the way as it would if my great sword kensai's level 8 green steel is a maul.

My other strength melee is an old fighter multiclass that I plan to rebuild. His level 8 GS weapon is a great sword, and so I was thinking he'd be my eventual double TR Kensai.

I am still not positive on what I will do, but comparing these options is the step I am at now. Either way, I am going to TR paladin first, then barb, fighter, or some combination. So I have that full paladin life to decide.

The OP talks basically about 2 extra feats versus Mighty Rage and Capstone.

Let's pick 7 Feats: THF; ITHF; GTHF; Toughness; Cleave; Power Attack; Improved Critical. That's the basic.
K there is Stunning Blow and Barbarian Past Life:Berserker's Fury.

You missed a feat choice that is sort of important, and mentioned several times in my description of the two options. You also missed the best benefit of the fighter splash - melee alacrity action boost. It seems obvious that you did not read over the two options and are unclear as to what they actually are.

[fjrrider]

HI,

thanks for the post, most informative.

the thing i am wondering since i'm new to multiclassing is when CAN you take the 2 levels of fighter? I am already at lvl 1 barb with my TR and still wondering about fitting 2 lvls of fighter there

thanks

[ddobard1]

I would take the Fighter levels at level 2 and level 3 to get the feats as fast as possible.