Something must be done...

[Crann]

To the OP: I understand your frustration. It is difficult to have to deal with people that are incapable of performing tasks that you find trivial. It is especially trying on one's patience when these people seemingly refuse to listen as you try in vain to instruct them. As a parent of young children I am all too familiar with the concept. However, speaking as a new-comer to the 13th Eclipse, I would like you to consider some of the frustrations of trying to learn the quest.

Before attempting to run the shroud I decided to search for information in these forums and on ddowiki. I read a fair bit and thought I understood the quest. I was greatly mistaken. The information on ddowiki is superficial, and the walkthrough I found on the forum was grossly inadequate. The other (non-walkthrough) comments on the forums were much like yours - complaining about what people did wrong, but in such a way that the uninitiated could not easily learn much from it.

I still have yet to find a walkthrough that adequately explains what needs to be done for each part of the quest (if you have a link, please share). Here are some of the surprizes that I found and areas that I am still confused about after 4 completions (and having identified myself to the groups as new for each):

Part 1
-I had no map of the area, and no idea where the portals would appear or the the pattern that must be run to hit each in sequence.
-Is there a "correct" sequence?
-Is there a way to study-up on this outside the quest? Or should I just keep following all of the other blue dots over and over again until I remember by repetition?
-Do the portal keepers spawn randomly? Only after a certain period of time? Does this have anything to do with the order in which you beat the portals?
-I thought my +5 metalline of pure good great axe would be a good portal beater (confused harry beater with portal beater). I noticed yellow numbers and asked the group what I should use instead...they said "doesn't matter". Thanks....
-I failed to understand that GCB would overcome portal DR (does it...I'm still not certain). It's not clear from the weapon description for GCB why it should.

Part 2
-The leader instructed "not to run through the middle". Um, my map is all black except for the spot where I am standing...what/where the heck is "the middle"?
-Hey, look at that...there is a spot where you can regen hps and mana! Who knew!?
-Why do you have to separate all the red nameds? Lead them from the center so they can't rez quickly, sure. But why do they need to be separated exactly?
-I am sure there's lots of other stuff about this part that I don't know, and don't even know enough to ask. So far my strategy is to hide in a corner, wait for someone to bring a red named to me, jump in, get it to 10% hps and wait for the leader to say "finish him". This is literally ALL I KNOW about this part after 4 runs. Oh, that and that one of the casters goes off some place to destroy a crystal or something when the bosses are all dead.

Part 3 (this one is just the best)
-I read-up on lights out before hand. Practiced. Read the wikipedia article on the mathematical theory behind it. I was READY and stoked for this one.
-Failed hard. First time through I landed on the 5X5. I tried the "step on every spot below an off light method"...hmmm didn't work out for some reason. Odd. OK lets try the solver. Great, the solver gives me a solution. Now I'll just step...wait i didn't step on that one...or that one...***!? I was expecting a puzzle, not some ultraprecise jumping nonsense. Ultimately had to ask for help. The leader says "OK no problem, where is your room?" Ummm my map is all black except for the square I am in....
-When they found me, they solved the puzzle in like 3 seconds. Sigh.
-It was not until my fourth run that I realized that the sequence is: solve puzzle, run to central fountain, return to puzzle, interact with spout/fountain.
-I have heard stories about "breaking crystals" and losing chests. But I am only vaguely aware of what is involved in all that.
-I have yet to complete that cycle for myself (but hey, I solved a puzzle all on my own last time. Huzzah!). I have not experienced "clearing the center" (what is there to clear?). And I have no idea what this "prismatic wall" is that the OP spoke of.

Part 4
-Well, this part was actually fairly well explained in the various forum posts that I read before hand. So I donned my firestorm greaves and my harry beater and hacked away, secure behind my 532 hps. Thus, I consider part four to be the easiest part of the shroud.

Part 5
-Why is the group running over to that corner? Oh, rez spot. cool.
-Why do we need to separate all the red nameds?
-Why do we need to box in one last guy...oh so the casters can go get mana.
-Why is there a mini-harry and a giant-harry?
-I heard a story about harry teleporting people...does that really happen?


OK, I think I'm done.

I was in the exact same boat a few months ago, and began writing this as a journal to record what I found out as I read different advice threads, and began to get experience in the raid.

http://my.ddo.com/guild-orien-knight...-shroud-guide/

I think it answers alot of your questions, and has lead me to research the answers to those it does not. If any of the experienced players could also take a look and provide some feedback, I would appreciate it. I am by no means a Shroud expert(I have <50 runs) but I hope to develope this guide more completely.

[Pikeman]

This thread may help you Pike

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=280188

That was excellent. Thanks!

[Pikeman]

I was in the exact same boat a few months ago, and began writing this as a journal to record what I found out as I read different advice threads, and began to get experience in the raid.

http://my.ddo.com/guild-orien-knight...-shroud-guide/

I think it answers alot of your questions, and has lead me to research the answers to those it does not. If any of the experienced players could also take a look and provide some feedback, I would appreciate it. I am by no means a Shroud expert(I have <50 runs) but I hope to develope this guide more completely.

The link to the solving post was most helpful. I do not think I need a solver anymore.

[Killer-Bee]

*Some answers below:
*(I'm snipping a lot to minimize wall of text look)

Part 1
-I had no map of the area, and no idea where the portals would appear or the the pattern

* There are a couple decent maps on the 1st or 2nd page of this thread

-Is there a "correct" sequence?

*Yes and No, Each server has a generally excepted pattern that isn't necessarily the same as other servers, but the main point is to destroy portals as quickly and efficently as possible.

-Is there a way to study-up on this outside the quest? Or should I just keep following

* Following will probably be best; training can be done with a friendly caster who can "pause" part 1 by flesh to stone/energy draining the last baddie before portals pop and run you through the pattern a few times.

-Do the portal keepers spawn randomly? Only after a certain period of time? Does this have anything to do with the order in which you beat the portals?

* When portals spawn 3 trogs also spawn, after they have survived for a duration a devil/cat/orthon spawns and after they have survived for a duration a keeper spawns. If a keeper survives for long enough you trigger a quest fail objective and are all sent back to meridia. Order for beating is for speed, knowledge of timing for portal spawns is important to casters for killing all the trash before the devil/cat/orthons spawn

-I thought my +5 metalline of pure good great axe would be a good portal beater (confused harry beater with portal beater).

* Portals have DR vs everything, the best bet is to do as much damage as possible. Weapons with Holy (Burst)/Anarchic (Burst)/Greater Construct Bane get the most bonus damage. Portals are immune to crits but take bonus alignment burst damage. Pay attention to bonus amount while looking for good, bane, and chaotic damage types. Vicious is also used by some. A holy of pure good weapon will do +3d6 damage while a [non-effective prefix] of GCB also does +3d6. A holy of GCB would be doing +5d6 damage.

Part 2
-The leader instructed "not to run through the middle". Um, my map is all black except for the spot where I am standing...what/where the heck is "the middle"?

* You will get used to this with time, but if you never move north it is not possible to get to the center. If you start in the southeast is the only place where you have to do a slight north jog to get to the rendevous

-Why do you have to separate all the red nameds? Lead them from the center so they can't rez quickly, sure. But why do they need to be separated exactly?

* They aura buff each other like a paly; it varies what they give each other and there are 8 different possible bosses

-...Oh, that and that one of the casters goes off some place to destroy a crystal or something when the bosses are all dead.

* The crystal is in the center, approaching it triggers the bosses. it is surrounded by a shield that drops when all the bosses die and goes back up if one raises and it is what raises the bosses when they get back. Destroying it opens barrier to south to complete the part

Part 3 (this one is just the best)
-I have heard stories about "breaking crystals" and losing chests. But I am only vaguely aware of what is involved in all that.

* don't do this unless directed. breaking crystals above doors to puzzles opens the doors and turns off the puzzles but the underwater chests barrier will not drop anymore & water is still needed

-...I have not experienced "clearing the center" (what is there to clear?). And I have no idea what this "prismatic wall" is that the OP spoke of.

* The hallway leading to the center is closed off by a door and the crystals above it must be destroyed to get access to center. The underwater chests will still be available.
* The wall pops after some time and slowly circles the outer hallway instakilling anyone it touches. It goes through all the puzzle rooms and the entire length of the hallway leading into the center fountain. It doesn't touch the center fountain room though. It does weird stuff like backing up at corners and should be avoided by a good distance if you are following it

Part 5
-Why do we need to separate all the red nameds?

* The aura deal mentioned above and to take less damage

-I heard a story about harry teleporting people...does that really happen?

* Yes, but not a whole lot unless you are down to few living who are kiting

[NaturalHazard]

[QUOTE=Killer-Bee;3346545]*Some answers below:
*(I'm snipping a lot to minimize wall of text look)

on second thought its better i keep my mouth shut.

[sweez]

As a side note, I also see self proclaimed vets complain about having to learn the game from the ground up and expect the new players to do the same. Yeah you know those new players who outnumber us 5 to 1? In quantity based observation alone, the odds of getting into a good shroud pug with a bunch of names you dont know are slim. Yet people still do it, and then post here all surprised afterward when it fails miserably.

Be careful what you ask for, because in all the moaning that was done a year ago about making new players learn from the ground up, the result of what was being asked for is being seen in the increase of failed pug raids. A much smaller amount of effort then would have lead to alot less of what we see now.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Chai again.

Q_Q

[Azoralq]

-Why is there a mini-harry and a giant-harry?

I'm not entirely sure on this one, either..but I think it's just cosmetics. A Pit Fiend - by PnP standards - is a Large Creature..but maybe they wanted the badassness of a Pit Fiend to stand out? So that everyone can see him?

It also - might - be an extended reach from this feature. I know that on my ranged rogue, standing on the edge of distance allowed to get in sneak attacks (30 feet) I still get nailed every once in a while..and by PnP standards, a Pit Fiend does not have a 30 foot reach.

[BelgarianSernium]

It seems all the bad raids I have been in have been due directly to a lack of knowlegde by the players involved. This being the case, you can bet most of these people are fairly new to the raids and have never been taught how to work as a team within the rais. One of the most common statements I have heard coming out of raids is "God I hate noobs". Most of the older guilds, as a general rule will not bring new players into their guilds and thus they never get taught anything except what they pick up in general chat. The way to fix the problem is, as was stated earlier, to have educational runs to teach people what is and is not "good" in specific raids. I have recently started to rebuild my guild and am only taking those people who are new to the game. They are easy to mold, easily teachable and eager to learn. I run them through stormreach in the same order each area was originally put into the game and make sure when people are at the appropriate level to start a raid they are taught how to flag the raid and than how to run the raid. We do guild raids 4 times a week and the rest of the time is spent in new areas flagging for the next raid in line. Unfortunately this means that all of my capped toons have been boxed up and put in the closet until further notice. So far it is working out extremely well. The raids the guild is lvl capable of doing are extremely successful, EVERYONE knows what their job is, what weapons work and what weapons do not. Most of the peeps in my guild have been in the game less than 6 months and prob work better as a team than most people I have run with that have been in the game 4+ years. The moral of this is if you truly want highly successful raids in the era of F2P than you best be ready to educate.

[Astraghal]

People are dishonest and lazy.


There are a few things that I find particularly annoying.

-Why do so many people find it so hard to separate the lieutentants in parts 2 and 4?

-How can so many people not know when they have aggro?

-With solvers available, how come people still need help solving their puzzle in part 3?

-Why does half the group stand in the middle in part 3 while I'm still running water?

[MikeyMang]

1 way to avoid Shroud noobs. Speed Runs with no DDoor. Noobs wanna farm there Small and Medium ingredients without ever getting larges. Stick to speed runs. My only advice.

[MikeyMang]

To the OP: I understand your frustration. It is difficult to have to deal with people that are incapable of performing tasks that you find trivial. It is especially trying on one's patience when these people seemingly refuse to listen as you try in vain to instruct them. As a parent of young children I am all too familiar with the concept. However, speaking as a new-comer to the 13th Eclipse, I would like you to consider some of the frustrations of trying to learn the quest.

Before attempting to run the shroud I decided to search for information in these forums and on ddowiki. I read a fair bit and thought I understood the quest. I was greatly mistaken. The information on ddowiki is superficial, and the walkthrough I found on the forum was grossly inadequate. The other (non-walkthrough) comments on the forums were much like yours - complaining about what people did wrong, but in such a way that the uninitiated could not easily learn much from it.

I still have yet to find a walkthrough that adequately explains what needs to be done for each part of the quest (if you have a link, please share). Here are some of the surprizes that I found and areas that I am still confused about after 4 completions (and having identified myself to the groups as new for each):

Part 1
-I had no map of the area, and no idea where the portals would appear or the the pattern that must be run to hit each in sequence.
-Is there a "correct" sequence?
-Is there a way to study-up on this outside the quest? Or should I just keep following all of the other blue dots over and over again until I remember by repetition?
-Do the portal keepers spawn randomly? Only after a certain period of time? Does this have anything to do with the order in which you beat the portals?
-I thought my +5 metalline of pure good great axe would be a good portal beater (confused harry beater with portal beater). I noticed yellow numbers and asked the group what I should use instead...they said "doesn't matter". Thanks....
-I failed to understand that GCB would overcome portal DR (does it...I'm still not certain). It's not clear from the weapon description for GCB why it should.

Part 2
-The leader instructed "not to run through the middle". Um, my map is all black except for the spot where I am standing...what/where the heck is "the middle"?
-Hey, look at that...there is a spot where you can regen hps and mana! Who knew!?
-Why do you have to separate all the red nameds? Lead them from the center so they can't rez quickly, sure. But why do they need to be separated exactly?
-I am sure there's lots of other stuff about this part that I don't know, and don't even know enough to ask. So far my strategy is to hide in a corner, wait for someone to bring a red named to me, jump in, get it to 10% hps and wait for the leader to say "finish him". This is literally ALL I KNOW about this part after 4 runs. Oh, that and that one of the casters goes off some place to destroy a crystal or something when the bosses are all dead.

Part 3 (this one is just the best)
-I read-up on lights out before hand. Practiced. Read the wikipedia article on the mathematical theory behind it. I was READY and stoked for this one.
-Failed hard. First time through I landed on the 5X5. I tried the "step on every spot below an off light method"...hmmm didn't work out for some reason. Odd. OK lets try the solver. Great, the solver gives me a solution. Now I'll just step...wait i didn't step on that one...or that one...***!? I was expecting a puzzle, not some ultraprecise jumping nonsense. Ultimately had to ask for help. The leader says "OK no problem, where is your room?" Ummm my map is all black except for the square I am in....
-When they found me, they solved the puzzle in like 3 seconds. Sigh.
-It was not until my fourth run that I realized that the sequence is: solve puzzle, run to central fountain, return to puzzle, interact with spout/fountain.
-I have heard stories about "breaking crystals" and losing chests. But I am only vaguely aware of what is involved in all that.
-I have yet to complete that cycle for myself (but hey, I solved a puzzle all on my own last time. Huzzah!). I have not experienced "clearing the center" (what is there to clear?). And I have no idea what this "prismatic wall" is that the OP spoke of.

Part 4
-Well, this part was actually fairly well explained in the various forum posts that I read before hand. So I donned my firestorm greaves and my harry beater and hacked away, secure behind my 532 hps. Thus, I consider part four to be the easiest part of the shroud.

Part 5
-Why is the group running over to that corner? Oh, rez spot. cool.
-Why do we need to separate all the red nameds?
-Why do we need to box in one last guy...oh so the casters can go get mana.
-Why is there a mini-harry and a giant-harry?
-I heard a story about harry teleporting people...does that really happen?


OK, I think I'm done.

Shroud is ALL about repitition.

Part 1- You'll learn where the portals spawn with repitition.
Part 2- You'll learn where the mini-bosses have to go and how fast they run when they're dead with repition.
Part 3- You'll learn how to do each puzzle (Circle, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5) with repitition.
Part 4- You'll learn how to swing your weapon and what weapons will bypass Devil/Demon DR with repitition.
Part 5- You'll learn how to seperate and kill things with repitition.

If people would just listen to simple directions and stop making these directions harder than they actually are then Shrouds and every other PUG group wouldn't be so bad. I refuse to PUG any non-raid quests. And some raids i'd rather short man than take the chance of having some moron wrecking everything. DDO went F2P, and know-it-alls came to be.

[MeliCat]

Hmmm... all this makes me want to jump on a cleric, grab a couple of friends with serious dps, and then lfm for the rest "newbies welcome. lots of explanations given. being run for learners and first timers" and just accept the first whoever. could be amusing

and of *course* a DD would be available... so much more civilised to step out from the front porch that to be interrupted while recalling, and less repairs costs than a death...