Rogue Acrobat Changes

[Qezuzu]

Assassins and Mechanics are chosen so horrendously disproportionately to Acrobats it's silly, and the bonuses the Acrobat PrE could be better while still being logical.

Assassin: Truly vicious. Higher damage with all weapons and ability to... assassinate things.

Mechanics: Adept with devices. Excellent with traps and can even salvage more parts from them. Proficiency in repeater crossbows and ability to boost the power of these devices.

Acrobat: Nimble and agile, with insane reflexes. Attack faster with a stick and immunity to most knockdown effects. Their nimbleness and agility are insufficient to dodge an arrow.

Assassins excel in melee fighting; Mechanics have lethal ranged damage and high trap prowess. I think acrobats should focus on AC, not in the sense of being able to deflect blows but dodge them completely with the insane reflexes you would expect from an acrobat.

Current:
Acrobat I: Dexterity bonus added to damage when sneak attacking with a Quarterstaff, competence bonus to attack speed with staves, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge.
Active Benefit: 1 minute of +10 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble, +4 dexterity and +25% enhancement bonus to running speed.

Acrobat II: Greater competence bonus to attack speed with staves, complete immunity to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces, increases your movement rate by 10%, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge.

My Suggestion:
Acrobat I: Dexterity bonus added to damage when sneak attacking with a Quarterstaff, competence bonus to attack speed with staves, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge. +2 stacking dodge bonus to AC.

Acrobat II: Greater competence bonus to attack speed with staves, complete immunity to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge. Dexterity bonus to Armor Class increased by 33%, +2 stacking dodge bonus to AC, +10 dodge bonus to AC against projectiles

Acrobat III: +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble, Dexterity bonus to Armor Class increased by 66%, +2 stacking dodge bonus, +4 to reflex saves.

[Dylvish]

Assassins and Mechanics are chosen so horrendously disproportionately to Acrobats it's silly, and the bonuses the Acrobat PrE could be better while still being logical.

Assassin: Truly vicious. Higher damage with all weapons and ability to... assassinate things.

Mechanics: Adept with devices. Excellent with traps and can even salvage more parts from them. Proficiency in repeater crossbows and ability to boost the power of these devices.

Acrobat: Nimble and agile, with insane reflexes. Attack faster with a stick and immunity to most knockdown effects. Their nimbleness and agility are insufficient to dodge an arrow.

Assassins excel in melee fighting; Mechanics have lethal ranged damage and high trap prowess. I think acrobats should focus on AC, not in the sense of being able to deflect blows but dodge them completely with the insane reflexes you would expect from an acrobat.

Current:
Acrobat I: Dexterity bonus added to damage when sneak attacking with a Quarterstaff, competence bonus to attack speed with staves, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge.
Active Benefit: 1 minute of +10 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble, +4 dexterity and +25% enhancement bonus to running speed.

Acrobat II: Greater competence bonus to attack speed with staves, complete immunity to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces, increases your movement rate by 10%, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge.

My Suggestion:
Acrobat I: Dexterity bonus added to damage when sneak attacking with a Quarterstaff, competence bonus to attack speed with staves, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge. Dexterity bonus to armor class is increased by 50%, +2 stacking dodge bonus to AC.

Acrobat II: Greater competence bonus to attack speed with staves, complete immunity to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces, +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, Tumble and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge. Dexterity bonus to Armor Class doubled, +2 stacking dodge bonus to AC, +10 dodge bonus to AC against projectiles

Acrobat III: +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble, Dexterity bonus to Armor Class tripled, +2 stacking dodge bonus, +4 to reflex saves.
Active Benefit: Improved Uncanny dodge is replaced with Supreme Uncanny Dodge, giving +8 to AC and reflex saves.

With the PrE, would it be possible to get very high AC? Sure. But would it be balanced with Assassinate: a ~37 DC fort save every 15 seconds to kill a monster?

While its a novel idea, and I would like for Acro to see some love, 3x dex bonus to AC?!! Even with the 50% bonus, you would see every tank in the game with 6 rogue just for exploiting the AC in skirts, which is already over the top and makes heavy armor next to useless.
You would see the current people that can hit 72AC suddenly shoot up to the 85-90 AC range. This is just not the way to go.

An idea I did see elsewhere that I liked though was adding a passive stun proc chance to staff attacks at Acro II, and adding in a passive % chance to dodge melee attacks at Acro III (when it comes out).

[Bodic]

Acrobat III: +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble, Dexterity bonus to Armor Class tripled, +2 stacking dodge bonus, +4 to reflex saves.
Active Benefit: Improved Uncanny dodge is replaced with Supreme Uncanny Dodge, giving +8 to AC and reflex saves.

http://www.d20srd.org/

Please find Supreme Uncanny Dodge.

other than that all good

[t0r012]

yeah +50% dex bonus to AC is over the top, 100% and 2x are beyond even that.

think about what you are saying a 1 monk splash to get wis and even just acrobat1.
level 7 so you are looking at +4 RR stat items so 20 wis (+5) or eat a +2 wis tome for 22(+6) and even 18 base dex (20 is doable) with +2 tome +4 item +2 wind stance is 26 (+8)

so 10 base + 6 wis + 8 dex+ 4 (50% proposed acrobat bonus) + 5 armor (jiz bracers) +2 dodge from proposal +3 protect item +1 from dodge ritual = 39 ac unbuffed standing. that is just insane. throw on 4 for shield clickies, more for showtime , 1 for halfling , 1 for dodge feat and on and on, that is stupid high AC.

now run that out to level 13 for acrobat2 with the proposed doubled dex bonus and another +2 dodge, +6 stat items and things just start getting beyond silly.

[.Revenga.]

allright,
stop it!
this is silly!

[Qezuzu]

This was written under time constraints, so I didn't have much time to run the numbers. I soon realized just with passive calculations the AC could be boosted to a silly high number that even Epic Lailat would shudder at.

No bonus for I
Bonus for II decreased to 33%
Bonus for III decreased to 66%
"Supreme" uncanny dodge dropped.

20 Base DEX
5 Level ups
7 Item (Epic Gloves of the Falcon)
2 EXC
1 EXC (perhaps on Epic Gloves of the Falcon)
4 Tome
3 Rogue AP
2 Racial AP
2 Yugo
1 Litany
2 Capstone

For 49. Round to 50 for some bonus I'm forgetting somewhere, and you have Acrobat III giving an ?absolute max of 19 AC (rounded from 19.2). 21 if you count Showtime. That's with rather steep sacrifices as well, though it can be augmented by using Breeze.

[wiglin]

3x dex bonus is just crazy silly.

Now this i could see.

Acrobat III
* +1 dodge AC for every 5 ranks of tumble up to a maximum of 5 at tumble 25
* full attack bonus granted when using quarterstaffs
* an additional 10% alacrity granted for a total of 30% / or glancing blows are applied while moving. ( for quarterstaffs only) / or 10% chance for double strikes.

[rimble]

For 47. Round to 48 for some bonus I'm forgetting somewhere, and you have Acrobat III giving an absolute max of 19 AC (rounded from 18.54). That's with rather steep sacrifices as well.

Once you have the couple of Quarterstaves that use Dex modifier for both Attack and Damage, you may not be sacrificing nearly as much as you think.

A Strength-based PrE on a Dex-based class has always confused me. I've wanted to make one forever, just can't rectify the dichotomy of it all.

[Qezuzu]

Once you have the couple of Quarterstaves that use Dex modifier for both Attack and Damage, you may not be sacrificing nearly as much as you think.

A Strength-based PrE on a Dex-based class has always confused me. I've wanted to make one forever, just can't rectify the dichotomy of it all.

It isn't STR based, just some people choose having higher STR than using Finesse since it gives both attack and damage.

[Jaid314]

It isn't STR based, just some people choose having higher STR than using Finesse since it gives both attack and damage.

go try finessing a staff and see how that goes, then report back please.

[Qezuzu]

I thought he was talking about Assassin since Acrobat adds the DEX mod to Sneak attacks (at least it will). Though not going STR based will require using the two staffs in the game that are DEX focused.

[Cpw]

I would be happy if Acrobat 1 added quarterstaves as a finesse weapon.

[Cloista]

I would be happy if Acrobat 1 added quarterstaves as a finesse weapon.

Ding Ding! We have a winner!

Would be a perfect change.

[Qezuzu]

Ding Ding! We have a winner!

Would be a perfect change.

Well that's just too simple :P

Anyway, as I'm not liking my idea anymore, I would think things like:

Stacking 30% chance to dodge projectiles, 15% for spells (like Disintegrate)
Having some Jump and Tumble abilities when Sneaking
Better Trip DC's

Would make the PrE more appealing vs. Assassin or Mechanic

[dkyle]

http://www.d20srd.org/

Please find Supreme Uncanny Dodge.

other than that all good

It's not in the 3.5 PnP SRD. Do you have a point here? DDO's Uncanny Dodge looks nothing like PnP's Uncanny Dodge to begin with, since DDO doesn't implement "flat-footed".

Responding to suggestions with "look at 3.5 PnP SRD", and nothing else, is not helpful.


Anyway, a few things should happen to make quarterstaff acrobats worthwhile:

* Make quarterstaves finessable, at least by Acrobat Is
* Make quarterstaves use TWF attack chain. The animation doesn't even have to change. Make it a toggle to avoid messing up any that would prefer THF. (and please, please, make it, and power attack, remember their settings, like Metamagics)

This would at least let a quarterstaff acrobat compete with a non-PrE rogue. To make them compete with Assassin and Mechanic, I think going for greater survivability is a reasonable option. A few ideas (probably too much to include all of them):

* Let quarterstaves act like shields for Acrobats. Start at +1 AC, plus enhancement modifier. Make it an additional +1 for second tier, then an additional +2 for third tier.
* Ranged touch attack spells (like Scorching Rays) have a 20/40/60 (at each tier) chance of missing
* Acrobat III: Evasion applies to Fort saves
* Acrobat II: Add Intelligence mod to AC. This does not stack with Monk's WIS to AC.
* Acrobat III: Add INT mod to saves. This does not stack with Pali's CHA to saves.

[Bodic]

It's not in the 3.5 PnP SRD. Do you have a point here? DDO's Uncanny Dodge looks nothing like PnP's Uncanny Dodge to begin with, since DDO doesn't implement "flat-footed".

Responding to suggestions with "look at 3.5 PnP SRD", and nothing else, is not helpful.


Anyway, a few things should happen to make quarterstaff acrobats worthwhile:

* Make quarterstaves finessable, at least by Acrobat Is
* Make quarterstaves use TWF attack chain. The animation doesn't even have to change. Make it a toggle to avoid messing up any that would prefer THF. (and please, please, make it, and power attack, remember their settings, like Metamagics)

This would at least let a quarterstaff acrobat compete with a non-PrE rogue. To make them compete with Assassin and Mechanic, I think going for greater survivability is a reasonable option. A few ideas (probably too much to include all of them):

* Let quarterstaves act like shields for Acrobats. Start at +1 AC, plus enhancement modifier. Make it an additional +1 for second tier, then an additional +2 for third tier.
* Ranged touch attack spells (like Scorching Rays) have a 20/40/60 (at each tier) chance of missing
* Acrobat III: Evasion applies to Fort saves
* Acrobat II: Add Intelligence mod to AC. This does not stack with Monk's WIS to AC.
* Acrobat III: Add INT mod to saves. This does not stack with Pali's CHA to saves.

1. DDO is based on 3.5 Feats Skills Abilities Classes, and there is nothing Higher than Uncanny Dodge thats not EPIC
2. A quarterstaff is a THF weapon not a single handed or double bladed so impossible you just want to able to TWF and THF when you switch weapons.
3. You can get finesse Quarterstaffs, but why Acrobat is a the Strength build Brawler PrE
4. Int mod to saves get insightful reflex, but are you serious your Int should be low not super high

[dkyle]

1. DDO is based on 3.5 Feats Skills Abilities Classes, and there is nothing Higher than Uncanny Dodge thats not EPIC

I don't really care, and neither should the Devs. DDO is it's own game. 3.5 PnP is not exactly a well balanced game to begin, to say nothing of the massive differences between a real-time action game and a turn-based tabletop RPG.

2. A quarterstaff is a THF weapon not a single handed or double bladed so impossible you just want to able to TWF and THF when you switch weapons.

Actually, in 3.5, quarterstaff is a double-weapon, that can work with TWF. So this would not only make DDO more like 3.5 (which you seem to like), it would help make quarterstaff worth using with Acrobats, which is clearly what the PrE intends.

3. You can get finesse Quarterstaffs, but why Acrobat is a the Strength build Brawler PrE

Yeah, currently, because Acrobat is currently broken, and only marginally viable as a STR-build. When I think "acrobat", I think DEX-based. I think it would be nice if it were a viable DEX-based PrE.

And requiring people to build around certain named-items is a terrible thing. It implicitly limits the power an versatility of those builds, and means that the Devs would need to constantly add DEX-based quarterstaffs to keep up with the weapons everyone else gets.

4. Int mod to saves get insightful reflex, but are you serious your Int should be low not super high

My proposal would stack with DEX, like Pali's CHA. I didn't suggest it should be super high, but it's a secondary stat that a lot of rogues already put at least a little in, and one that I think could make sense adding to AC and Saves. Even with a starting 10, +6 item, +2 tome, would mean +4 AC and Saves. That would be a nice boost, I think.

[t0r012]

go try finessing a staff and see how that goes, then report back please.

nat gahn's staff for low level and breeze for higher level
2 finesse-able staffs.

[Bodic]

Quarterstaff
A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.


Yup I was wrong

[Darkrok]

To the people wanting acrobat to increase defense, why not go with an incorporeality bonus rather than more AC.

Explain it as something like "you've become so adept as an acrobat that you can often dodge blows entirely that would have hit you". The mechanic for incorporeality bonuses is already in the game. Give T2 or T3 the same 25% that T1 of Ninja Spy gets. Probably T3 to avoid stacking issues with Ninja Spy but if they really wanted to be sick they could allow T2 Acrobat and T1 Ninja Spy's incorporeality to be additive.