Splash 6 barbarian?

[Dwarfo]

ok, so i tr'd my 12 fighter 6 rranger, 2 monk into a 18/2 fighter rogue. currently i am at 14th lvl, 12 fighter, 2 rogue, and was wondering if splashing 6 barb for rages/frenzy 1 would be better than kensai 3.

i am a WF duel wielding khopeshes.

[Hokonoso]

yes, that is actually the highest dps build right now (12ftr/6barb/2rog) as with pastlife barb you can reach a 90 str.

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

yes, that is actually the highest dps build right now (12ftr/6barb/2rog) as with pastlife barb you can reach a 90 str.

why would 2rogue give you more dps than 2ranger? Some use of UMD?

[Crann]

why would 2rogue give you more dps than 2ranger?

Sneak attack for a few hits before you take aggro?

Rogue is better than Ranger for those 2 levels also IMHO for evasion and UMD.

[blitzschlag]

why would 2rogue give you more dps than 2ranger? Some use of UMD?

1d6 sneak attack damage against everything that isn't fortificated

against

2 favored enemy damage against a certain type of enemy

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

Sneak attack damage? So the rogue holds his attacks until he can get sneak attack? Doesn't sound like a dps increase to me, but a reduction. Then he does savage damage so gains aggro so he has to bluff out and wait. More dps reduction. That is not what I consider increasing dps. Sneak attack damage is not automatic and often comes with overall dps reduction in the long run.

On the ranger side, you have also forgotten that it gives him BAB 20. That's going to account for something like a 3% to 5% increase in overall dps. Isn't that a large factor?

[Hokonoso]

why would 2rogue give you more dps than 2ranger? Some use of UMD?

2 ranger gives you exactly 1 BAB and 1 FE neither of which will increase your dps to a significant range considering that it's the other 18 lvls that are giving you dps in this build

2 rogue gives you evasion and allows you to max intimidate and umd as a half-orc (already built a similar build and it is possible with 2 rog but nothing else). not to mention it actually increases your dps with sneak attack, so in essence it gives you more dps than 2 ranger.

edit: infact you gain more from 2 more fighter levels than you would from 2 ranger levels cause then you get a feat at least, tho neither is needed or necessary, the dps comes from the PrEs at 12 fighter and 6 barb and the enhancements that go with it, nowhere else. so you def want the 2 rog lvls for evasion and umd so you can stay True Neutral and still use all items in game without penalty (enduring conviction/epic chaosblades etc...)

[Consumer]

yes, that is actually the highest dps build right now (12ftr/6barb/2rog) as with pastlife barb you can reach a 90 str.

Completely incorrect.

[Hokonoso]

Completely incorrect.

then tell me which build come u7 (cause talking u7 here, not current) has more dps?

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

2 ranger gives you exactly 1 BAB and 1 FE neither of which will increase your dps to a significant range considering that it's the other 18 lvls that are giving you dps in this build

2 rogue gives you evasion and allows you to max intimidate and umd as a half-orc (already built a similar build and it is possible with 2 rog but nothing else). not to mention it actually increases your dps with sneak attack, so in essence it gives you more dps than 2 ranger.

edit: infact you gain more from 2 more fighter levels than you would from 2 ranger levels cause then you get a feat at least, tho neither is needed or necessary, the dps comes from the PrEs at 12 fighter and 6 barb and the enhancements that go with it, nowhere else. so you def want the 2 rog lvls for evasion and umd so you can stay True Neutral and still use all items in game without penalty (enduring conviction/epic chaosblades etc...)

Once again a 20 BAB gives you a 3-5% increase in dps. You cannot have an arguement if you continue to ignore this.

Evasion and umd do not increase dps directly. You are introducing irrelevant data to defend your assertion that rogue provides dps.

Spending time manuevering for Sneak Attack does lower your dps. Please aknowledge that.

Support your arguement or admit you are incorrect. I'm happy to either learn from you or substantiate my current belief.

[Consumer]

then tell me which build come u7 (cause talking u7 here, not current) has more dps?

This build as a HO, with a Barb past life just beats a non TRed TWF Fighter while it does not have agro (571 to 567). This is if you pick up extra HO action boosts, max power rage and PA on an AP strapped build.

Without the past life its down to 563, if the Fighter has a TR as well the Fighter picks the pally past life for divine favor clickies, the Fighters DPS increases to 578.

Its a high DPS build and has a good probability of taking agro. When it has agro it drops to 506 DPS compared to a Fighters 536 with agro.

The Fighter now makes an Epic SoS and repsecs to THF, he now does 594 DPS completely blowing the Khopesh user away.



Then we take into account that the Fighter has 3 activations per minute to sustain his DPS, Haste boost *2 and power surge. The 12/6/2 has to activate haste boost *2, power surge, frenzy and rage (not every minute for rage).

The HO Fighter has up to 13 haste boosts per rest and can fit in all the AP (as shown by my HO Fighter build on the alt forums). The 12/6/2 has a max of 11 haste boosts if it can balance the ap leaving it less time at max DPS (6.5 mins to 5.5 mins of constant boost).

The one advantage this build does have is that it has slightly higher 50 and 100% for DPS than a pure Fighter. However if you were building for those figures you would choose a HO TWF 18/2 Barb (another build I have on the alt forums) or Monk to keep those figures maxed.

I'm not gonna spend more time putting numbers down for you. Let alone going through other builds DPS.

[Hokonoso]

i have nothing more to say on this, sure i speak in absolutes but being off by a miniscule number in dps is not enough to admit im wrong. if someone wants to take 2 ranger levels by all means do it, losing evasion and umd is not worth anything the 2 ranger lvls give you but that's up to you. and for dps i cant say much more since my current build is 18/2 barb/fighter and it works well, i believe this is the current build to beat on live but with u7 and thf changes esos is looking better and better so who knows?

im interested to see what a DM 4 HO paladin will do with esos on elite horoth compared to all the other builds. also want to compare this build with 2 epic chaosblades since those are max khopesh dps vs the other builds but i prob wont build those, i know i will level up 2 HOs next patch, one paladin with a banked +4 cha tome but not sure on other, thinking is build cause it is evasion and umd, 18/2 or pure fighter are nice but i have those already, i dont have a high dps toon with umd or evasion so i might just try this.

i also think as far as non aggro goes the halfling chaosblade rogue user will have max dps in u7 but havent done any numbers beyond what is there now to see how that might change with u7.

[Consumer]

i have nothing more to say on this, sure i speak in absolutes but being off by a miniscule number in dps is not enough to admit im wrong.

I can say it for you if you like.

if someone wants to take 2 ranger levels by all means do it, losing evasion and umd is not worth anything the 2 ranger lvls give you but that's up to you. and for dps i cant say much more since my current build is 18/2 barb/fighter and it works well, i believe this is the current build to beat on live but with u7 and thf changes esos is looking better and better so who knows?

The 18/2 Barb/Fighter is also my current build, however mine is just a stepping stone in preparation for a more powerful build.

i also think as far as non aggro goes the halfling chaosblade rogue user will have max dps in u7 but havent done any numbers beyond what is there now to see how that might change with u7.

HO Rogue beats the Halfling unless the extra flanking to hit is needed. Funnily enough I have a HO Rogue build on the forums as well. I planned out several builds to get ready to TR with the next update. People that love epic chaosblades never seem to realise that they are worse that lit IIs.

[Mr_Tank]

Spending time manuevering for Sneak Attack does lower your dps. Please aknowledge that.

What maneuvering do you have to do to get sneak attack? You go up and attack. If say you are the second one to hit the mob bam +1d6 damage, and if you are the first oh well maybe next time.

[Hokonoso]

consumer what HO build would you recommend for me? current 18/2 barb/ftr with past life ranger currently so will be 36pt. have +4 cha/dex tomes (picked up dex last night) was planning paladin with esos but with a +4 dex tome could gain an extra stat and take a twf build as well, tho not sure if the dex will do anything for me at all since 13dex vs 14dex isnt as big deal as 14dex vs 15dex is.

i just really hate that i have a +4 dex tome that i have no use for, to even use it just to gain +1 reflex seems to be a slap in the face! but my 20th tod had 0 useful rings, a tales of valor and a +4 dex tome... had no choice but to take it lol

[Strakeln]

Sneak attack damage? So the rogue holds his attacks until he can get sneak attack? Doesn't sound like a dps increase to me, but a reduction.

You're likely talking with people who know this from experience. It's clear that you do not ("holds his attacks? Come on, really?). I suggest you either listen to those who are much more experienced than you, or gain the experience yourself, instead of your current approach.

[Crann]

Once again a 20 BAB gives you a 3-5% increase in dps. You cannot have an arguement if you continue to ignore this.

Please explain the 3-5% increase in DPS between 19 and 20 BAB.

I am of the understanding that you are going to hit everything on a 2 and above with this build anyway....what am I missing?

[Drakos]

Once again a 20 BAB gives you a 3-5% increase in dps. You cannot have an arguement if you continue to ignore this.

This is only the case if you are not already only missing on a 1. The increase in BAB does not help if your to hit is so high that you essentially autohit.

[grodon9999]

You swing faster at 20 BAB.

[Strakeln]

You swing faster at 20 BAB.

That was stated by a dev at being the case not that long ago. I've never heard them say they took it away... however, I don't think it's 3-5% per BaB... that would be quite noticeable when switching from a full BaB build to a sub-BaB build (say, from a full Barb to a build with 16 BaB). I don't see it. Has anyone done any testing concerning alacrity and BaB?