Dear ddo bard community

[valorik]

Stop freaking out about song of recklessness, it's only -10% fort, you'll get critted once in every 50 hits, max, and beleive it or not unless you're a super-gimp this will not one hit kill you. I decided to run a bunch of epics without my heavy fort for a bit today on my sorc to see how it was, the highest crit I saw was 140, the lack of fort did not kill me once the entire night.

Really, for the most part the 5% extra dps is more than worth it for 95% percent of situations, and the other 5% you're likely using a defensives stance anyways...

Also another point worth making is that when healing raids wf will be taking less damage than the rest of the group which means less spot healing, as a bard I find my self often throwing spot heals for the healing amp free wf out there... now it'll be pretty much even anyways.

Really, song of recklessness isn't making you worse in any way, if you're worried about it you can turn it off and you get a slew of other abilities with warchanter 2 anyways (free weapon prof, medium armor, gh song, etc...)

[Gunga]

Boomph is the cure for the bard buff that ails you.

[Stitch78]

Point 1 - Song of Recklessness: I tend to agree that a 5% stacking speed boost (which is really what it is) outweighs the 10% fort reduction. Presuming everyone has 100% fort, and presuming that mobs have a 15% chance to generate critical threats, and presuming they confirm 100% of those threats to criticals, a 10% fort reduction = a 1.5% chance to crit you. Unless my math sucks. Which is often does.

I'm guessing at the 15% crit range on mobs, as an average, but it seems likely. Add into your math that some WF have 125% fort (and those are likely to be melees) and those who have less than 100% fort are likely to be out of the range of likely mob attacks anyway, and I don't have a problem singing this.

But... people will FREAK OUT. That's not very helpful. So I won't sing it.

Point 2 - Warchanter II remaining benefits: Booooo. The weapon proficiency is highly underwhelming for the same reason the medium armor benefits are underwhelming - many (most?) bards are multiclassed. If you splashed barb, you already have medium armor and all weps. If you splashed fighter, you have all armor and all weps. Gets worse too - if you splashed for evasion, the medium armor does you no good at all. The hit points are nice but not worth the AP. And the GH is free at lvl 15 via the song. And if you don't want 15 lvls of bard, its free ONE LEVEL LATER at lvl 13 via the spell.

I'm aware of the arguments that the second tier will help and encourage pure bards (Junts will be chiming in below, no doubt!) but this doesn't do a lot for existing multiclass bards.

[Thelmallen]

I'm aware of the arguments that the second tier will help and encourage pure bards (Junts will be chiming in below, no doubt!) but this doesn't do a lot for existing multiclass bards.

I'm with ya on that. This PrE does very little to benefit my multiclass bard aside from the new song. I'm glad they finally rolled another PrE out and I'm sure it will help those pure bards out there but it won't change my build much at all.

[Hrum]

As the prototypical Axesinger (15 bard/ 2fighter / 3 rogue) none of the 'accessorys' that come with the PrE are very helpful as stated above. I have evasion so medium armor is pointless. Im a fighter so I have all martial proficiencies anyway, and im a dwarf so I get dwarven axes for free.

Like others stated, the PrE does help out the purer builds more, which I suppose is what it SHOULD do. Just kind of annoying because those of us who splashed our warchanters to get the things we needed to be viable, arent getting anything new. Only things we already had.

I think comparitively the other bard PrEs came out ahead, but IMO thats fine because warchanter was pretty far ahead before u7.

Is the GH song party wide or targetted? If targetted then I dont see myself using it very much cause songs take time, and I dont have that many songs anyway. But if its party wide that could be handy to save time and resources for arcanes. Granted its duration will still be lower, but in a lot of situations that will be fine.

[dkyle]

Do it on a melee, and you'll get a better idea of what the issue is.

The problem isn't so much that a crit will one shot you, it's that crits increase the spikiness of damage, which means your "safe point" is now much higher. This is most important during tank and spank boss fights with spammed mass heals, which are where DPS generally counts for the most.

Currently, the safe zone during Shroud part 4 might be around 200 HP. Anything less, and a few bad rolls on saves could kill before the healers get a chance to top you off again. This means, when someone gets to around 200 HP, its time to throw a new heal. With decent HP all around, it might be possible to heal with just use mass Heal. Now, with 90% fort, when some unluckiness on some crits can occur, the safe zone might go up to 300 HP. When you have Rogues in the group with 400 HP, healers now need to spam healing constantly to keep them safe. Now, the healers need to waste mana on mass cures.

In continuous damage, continuous healing situations like Shroud 4&5, ToD 1, 2 & 3, Epic Velah, etc., what's important is how much HP people have above the safe point. The safe point is determined by the maximum amount of damage that can be inflicted between heals. Anything less than 100% fort raises the amount of HP needed to be safe.

If you prefer not to have success or failure in a raid determined by sheer luck, or by how many pots your healers chug so they can spam inefficient mass cures, anything less than 100% fort is unacceptable.

In short: the song is probably viable in normal quests, where a crit will likely be isolated, and just means an extra spot heal. Unfortunately, in such places, the extra DPS isn't that important. In boss fights, where DPS is the most important, the loss of fort is too severe a penalty. A PrE that's useless in raids, is a PrE I'm not interested in. See: Virtuoso.

[EatSmart]

The problem isn't so much that a crit will one shot you, it's that crits increase the spikiness of damage, which means your "safe point" is now much higher.

Bang on the money. This is even more pronounced during fights where a DPS cant be resed (shroud 4), and where death makes the boss stronger (ToD).

[Valindria]

Dungeon Scaling will also play a role in how bad a crit will be. It's going to be situational. You wouldn't want to use it against the epic demon queen as the quick attacks could be insta kills. Also with the nerf to exhaustion the bosses are going to be attacking full speed now.

IMO Virt II is not as bad as people think. I don't think any of the tier II PrEs are perfect but I feel they at least make the conversation of what PrE to be more valid then "Go WC unless you want to CC then go SS".

There is still the break up for what each PrE does best:
WC - Melee Damage
SS - CC/Heals
Virt - Solo/short man

[JohnWarlock]

One comment on the GH Party Song.

It's a Song, Beholders, Anti-Magic Fields, etc can't dispel it.

[Chai]

Do warforged with 125% fort go down to a measly 115% fort? Or does it still make them get crit 1 out of 10 times?

Min maxers will do anything for more DPS, heh.

[knightgf]

Stop freaking out about song of recklessness, it's only -10% fort, you'll get critted once in every 50 hits, max, and beleive it or not unless you're a super-gimp this will not one hit kill you. I decided to run a bunch of epics without my heavy fort for a bit today on my sorc to see how it was, the highest crit I saw was 140, the lack of fort did not kill me once the entire night.

Really, for the most part the 5% extra dps is more than worth it for 95% percent of situations, and the other 5% you're likely using a defensives stance anyways...

Also another point worth making is that when healing raids wf will be taking less damage than the rest of the group which means less spot healing, as a bard I find my self often throwing spot heals for the healing amp free wf out there... now it'll be pretty much even anyways.

Really, song of recklessness isn't making you worse in any way, if you're worried about it you can turn it off and you get a slew of other abilities with warchanter 2 anyways (free weapon prof, medium armor, gh song, etc...)

Thankfully I'm a spellsinger and not a warchanter...

[Propane]

All of the 8 bard / xxx builds should still be as welcome in groups after the update as before... I was concerned that WCII would be sooo good that it would kill the 8 bard splash... I don't see this happening...

[Samadhi]

Do it on a melee, and you'll get a better idea of what the issue is.

The problem isn't so much that a crit will one shot you, it's that crits increase the spikiness of damage, which means your "safe point" is now much higher. This is most important during tank and spank boss fights with spammed mass heals, which are where DPS generally counts for the most.

Currently, the safe zone during Shroud part 4 might be around 200 HP. Anything less, and a few bad rolls on saves could kill before the healers get a chance to top you off again. This means, when someone gets to around 200 HP, its time to throw a new heal. With decent HP all around, it might be possible to heal with just use mass Heal. Now, with 90% fort, when some unluckiness on some crits can occur, the safe zone might go up to 300 HP. When you have Rogues in the group with 400 HP, healers now need to spam healing constantly to keep them safe. Now, the healers need to waste mana on mass cures.

In continuous damage, continuous healing situations like Shroud 4&5, ToD 1, 2 & 3, Epic Velah, etc., what's important is how much HP people have above the safe point. The safe point is determined by the maximum amount of damage that can be inflicted between heals. Anything less than 100% fort raises the amount of HP needed to be safe.

If you prefer not to have success or failure in a raid determined by sheer luck, or by how many pots your healers chug so they can spam inefficient mass cures, anything less than 100% fort is unacceptable.

In short: the song is probably viable in normal quests, where a crit will likely be isolated, and just means an extra spot heal. Unfortunately, in such places, the extra DPS isn't that important. In boss fights, where DPS is the most important, the loss of fort is too severe a penalty. A PrE that's useless in raids, is a PrE I'm not interested in. See: Virtuoso.

I think this is a pretty decent breakdown. Of course, I also think an endgame melee build with under 500 HP is not a proper endgame build, so assuming all endgame builds, my conclusion is the same as Valorik's in the end - sing away warchanters, sing away.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Do it on a melee, and you'll get a better idea of what the issue is.

The problem isn't so much that a crit will one shot you, it's that crits increase the spikiness of damage, which means your "safe point" is now much higher. This is most important during tank and spank boss fights with spammed mass heals, which are where DPS generally counts for the most.

This is in fact the problem. I'd definately take the chance on my 600-800pt fighters and barbs, on my 450ish hp rogue & bard I'll be hitting a stance to dismiss it because its just a little too risky and I think it will be disruptive and an undue drain on the healers.

On my cleric/fvs I will probably heal as normal everywhere except ToD and just let the extra squishies die if they get unlucky crits. In ToD you of course have no choice but to heal for the shortest red bar.

I'm mixed... I'll have to see how that 10% crit plays out to see if it makes things more intersesting, or just sucks the fun out of the game for healers. I know I sure see in the first fight who only has 75% or less fort...and it makes me very very grumpy.

[Samadhi]

All of the 8 bard / xxx builds should still be as welcome in groups after the update as before... I was concerned that WCII would be sooo good that it would kill the 8 bard splash... I don't see this happening...

How do you kill, that which is already dead.

[Chubsta]

As the prototypical Axesinger (15 bard/ 2fighter / 3 rogue) none of the 'accessorys' that come with the PrE are very helpful as stated above. I have evasion so medium armor is pointless. Im a fighter so I have all martial proficiencies anyway, and im a dwarf so I get dwarven axes for free.

Like others stated, the PrE does help out the purer builds more, which I suppose is what it SHOULD do. Just kind of annoying because those of us who splashed our warchanters to get the things we needed to be viable, arent getting anything new. Only things we already had.

I think comparitively the other bard PrEs came out ahead, but IMO thats fine because warchanter was pretty far ahead before u7.

Is the GH song party wide or targetted? If targetted then I dont see myself using it very much cause songs take time, and I dont have that many songs anyway. But if its party wide that could be handy to save time and resources for arcanes. Granted its duration will still be lower, but in a lot of situations that will be fine.

This is exactly how I feel. I have the same build and the new PrE does not offer enough to change it. The only thing that looks good is the GH song, if it is a group song, and it is still not enough to get me to change my build.

[dkyle]

How do you kill, that which is already dead.

This makes me imagine a 12wiz/8bard Pale Master out there somewhere...

[Valindria]

This is exactly how I feel. I have the same build and the new PrE does not offer enough to change it. The only thing that looks good is the GH song, if it is a group song, and it is still not enough to get me to change my build.

It's a mass GH song that can't be dispelled.

Problems: It lasts for ~ 5 min end game. A spell can last for 15-40 minutes depending on the build and extend. Beholders are people's big "pro", but really the AC song gives +4 saves as well. Granted it's not the whole party, but still usable. Personally I would rather spend the spell points 1 time instead of getting everyone to group up all the time. There will be some nice places where you are not around long enough to really need more than 5 min. Shroud is a good example. Plus since it can not be dispelled you can use on part 3 to help with saves if someone triggers the horrid wilting or whatever it is.

I think the duration should be increased to be the same as inspire courage. Then at least the group would already be grouped or missing out on the goods. I also wish they had song stacking so I didn't have to sing so many songs.

If I go WC, my song order will be Courage, Greatness, Good Hope (spell + assuming 1 song will be on timer like Ironskin), GH Song, Reckless(sometimes).

[Propane]

How do you kill, that which is already dead.

Really? I must have missed that memo...

[dkyle]

Really? I must have missed that memo...

8bard splashes are nice for soloing and short-manning quests, but not so great in raids. Personal DPS is likely too low to be desired for a DPS spot, and songs are too weak to be desired for the Bard spot. It allows for a balanced build, but DDO's endgame doesn't favor balanced builds.

For anyone who prioritizes endgame effectiveness, 8bard builds have long been a dead end.