DDO and AC?

[grodon9999]

Now as fun as this was...I was mainly trying to learn the "sneak" mechanics and how aggro works in regards to distance.
I fully realized that this toon was for *ME* to solo low stuff strictly for fun. I would never bring him into anything else. I do think exploiters can be awesome...I just do not want to devote that kinda time to it.

The problem is this..."Ninja" style play does not work once ya hit the Desert or Gianthold. Monsters have more HP and more "to-hit" making that AC threshold harder to hit.

Then you graduate to vale and then Amrath...the AC is even harder to hit. It turns into a case of too much sacrifice of DPS for diminishing returns on the AC/defense side.

A few weeks ago I took 3 of my friends through "A New Invasion" stealth style. It was two rangers and two rogues, no casters or healers. Only my toon was equipped with Green Steel and raid-loot, two of the toons were my friend's first toons and we all know how those usually turn out. We snuck our way past everything, it was a hell of a lot of fun and maybe killed 10 mobs before we got to the boss. It was an interesting change of pace, like Hunt for Red October" in hell.

The Stealth Mechanics do work in higher level content, it's just really SLLLLOOOOOWWWW. When you're looking for XP or loot who has time for this stuff? My first toon was really gimpy so I learned this because it was the only way she could stay alive, once you build better toons it's just not needed.

Funny thing is we use stealth in epics all the time . . .

[Khanyth]

Anyone ever play the game "Tenchu: Stealth Assassins" on the original Playstation!?

Yes, and it is/was awesome.

[grodon9999]

If I'm wrong, please suggest how can AC be made relevant at epic.

Lower the mob's to-hits and expand the range of what "grazes" in epics. I understand the devs don't want people being invulnerable except for casters on perches who hide while mobs slowly roast in their firewalls.

[grodon9999]

You *can* reach an AC of like 115ish. Because of this they had to make monster be able to hit that.

But did they really? Can anything hit this AC and still have any offensive output at all? Any toon at 100 would have to be helpless and ignorable.

[Natashaelle]

80 ac in epic is nearly useless

That's not what I've found -- 80 AC greatly increases the number of grazing hits versus full damage for starters, and there are even mobs that can completely miss you on a roll of 2+ with that AC. This varies somewhat from Epic to Epic, of course...

...but survivability certainly improves.

80 AC isn't Epic Tank AC, that's much higher -- but it's just false to describe it as "nearly useless" in my experience.

YMMV -- DEX-based 80 AC is far less useful than the Full Plate & Tower Shield version for example

[Natashaelle]

I've heard reports from people that 85ish makes you un-hittable to epic- trash but I simply don't believe it.

No, it's rubbish.

Professional Tank Level AC in the Epics is 95+ AFAIK

[GhostNull]

DDO was asked in a recent gamebanshee interview if they were ever going to fix AC so that it mattered again. With a bit of hedging, they basicly said AC wasn't neccesary.

Which to be honest, i find kinda sad

It is very sad considering how often "AC is useless" threads crop up and how Turbine, non-chalantly goes off to say AC is fine. Some serious Dev/Player connectivity issues there.

[r3dl4nce]

AC IS fine. Just ignore it or build a door-block tank.

[grodon9999]

It is very sad considering how often "AC is useless" threads crop up and how Turbine, non-chalantly goes off to say AC is fine. Some serious Dev/Player connectivity issues there.

I don't believe the devs actually play this game in non-god-mode.

Let's take epics out of the equation since according to Turbine only 5% of the players play epic anyway and in epics we have enough cheats that you don't really need it. What's fouled up about AC in DDD is how it's MUCH easier to get useful AC while wearing pajamas that it is wearing armor.

[senin]

It is very sad considering how often "AC is useless" threads crop up and how Turbine, non-chalantly goes off to say AC is fine. Some serious Dev/Player connectivity issues there.

It's a good thing the game is only 20 levels. Only 20 levels, and the d20 system is crumbling down due to mobs having incredible to-hit numbers, inflated hp and blanket-immunities which were never meant to be part of the system. Is creativity dying here? AC is useless at the higher levels, unless you went out of your way to build up a AC character. Sad to say, it might be too late to be fixed.

[Templarion]

Very interesting thread.

I am considering to TR to a melee class and reading this gives me a hint how should I plan my build.

Remember Baldur's Gate? Max level there was something like 8-10. Thats probably because at those levels D&D is at it's best.

Too bad, in DDO you are on level 10 in a day if you know how to level up yourself.

[Aalric]

What's fouled up about AC in DDD is how it's MUCH easier to get useful AC while wearing pajamas that it is wearing armor.

I agree it IS strange.

But then again, perhaps the idea is that you're slower when wearing armour (but you have more DR) and you are agile at dodging blows in you're pj's.

Sort of like star wars jedi knights or Cain in kung fu (for those of you who are old enough to rememebr that, )

[grodon9999]

Very interesting thread.

I am considering to TR to a melee class and reading this gives me a hint how should I plan my build.

Remember Baldur's Gate? Max level there was something like 8-10. Thats probably because at those levels D&D is at it's best.

Too bad, in DDO you are on level 10 in a day if you know how to level up yourself.

PnP was completely different. Healing is MUCH easier here for one thing. I'm not sure how is worked in 3rd edition but in second healing spells required touch and there was no mass-curing.

[grodon9999]

I agree it IS strange.

But then again, perhaps the idea is that you're slower when wearing armour (but you have more DR) and you are agile at dodging blows in you're pj's.

Sort of like star wars jedi knights or Cain in kung fu (for those of you who are old enough to rememebr that, )

Yeah, but it's too much. My Dorf-monster hit 78 AC last night while tanking Sulu in ToD and he's got very little loot. To hit that while TWF in armor, if even possible, requires tons of raid-loot and epic gear as well as un-affordable armor mastery enhancements.

[Quikster]

In epic? And how much intimidate you should have? Because if you have a useful AC for epic, your DPS is nearly 0

Sure in epic.

This is the traditional answer of someone who hasnt run a high ac alt in epic quests. Even before the to hit nerf of epic mobs, an ~85 ac stopped a lot of incoming damage.

The key to making an ac build is to also be able to dps, and to know when to do each.

[MrWizard]

if you never played a high ac toon, you can not really say it is not 'viable' or useful at high level or end game.

a tripped or stunned or aggro in firewall mob doesn't really hit anyway, so what does it matter?

on a side note, an intimidate skill coupled with high dr and high ac can hold a lot of aggro in those firewalls and allow you to hit them too...and barely take any damage..

really.

the only issue in amrath, at any difficulty, for an ac toon is evasion. If you do not have evasion it just plain hurts if there is a caster or elemental. AC does not stop that kind of damage. Other than that, it is not very hard at all for a high ac toon..


the 'not viable' in epci (only) comes from people with ac used to not getting hit at all and then suddenly being able to get hit on more than a 20. 50% miss chance is still very helpful. Add displace to that and you are looking good.

I found that at 80 the misses start...85 they miss a lot, higher and you are looking at lots of misses. IF someone has to be aggroing the mobs while everyone else is beating on them, are you gonna pick the rogue or the high ac/dr intim tank that can hold aggro and barely take any damage?

Either epic your tactics are spell based, kite based, or you beat them down like a raid boss...if your tactics are not beat downs then ac is not an issue as it is not part of your strategy.

The hit points are just stupid in epics anyway. Unless you are epic weapon geared.


to summarize: face it, a lot of people hate...hate... intim and/or ac. They hate it, wish it was not in the game, and refuse to ever want toons like that in their parties..
To them ac is never and will never be viable. Any use of intim or ac to aggro is 'an easy button' and a cheap cheat.

As someone who plays an ac toon I say to make ac even more viable would make it unbalanced towards an already super powerful fighter build.

[Strakeln]

There is no way at end game that you can make a toon that has a ac and actually be worth anything. Sure you can make a toon that has a high enough ac but then all they would be good for is to carry soul stones and thats it.

Blatantly false. Where would you get such an idea? Certainly not from actual experience.

Really people, the whole player stance on AC is like a really bad rumor. Based on the level of misinformation, I'd have to guess that 95% of the people saying that AC is useless have never had a toon above 60 AC.

Really, people... either do some actual playtesting or listen to those who have. Don't parrot what seems popular to say. Just because you don't have the imagination to figure out how to DPS with a big AC doesn't mean it's not possible.

Rogue splashed with monk and possibly one other class can yield some incredible DPS while still self-buffing well into the 80s. Naturally, the proof is in the pudding, so I invite any nonbeliever on Khyber to group with my AC build (who is essentially retired because he's the freakin easy button of DDO).

[Quikster]

Blatantly false. Where would you get such an idea? Certainly not from actual experience.

Really people, the whole player stance on AC is like a really bad rumor. Based on the level of misinformation, I'd have to guess that 95% of the people saying that AC is useless have never had a toon above 60 AC.

Really, people... either do some actual playtesting or listen to those who have. Don't parrot what seems popular to say. Just because you don't have the imagination to figure out how to DPS with a big AC doesn't mean it's not possible.

Rogue splashed with monk and possibly one other class can yield some incredible DPS while still self-buffing well into the 80s. Naturally, the proof is in the pudding, so I invite any nonbeliever on Khyber to group with my AC build (who is essentially retired because he's the freakin easy button of DDO).

As I posted before the problem lies in the incredible grind it takes to be a quality ac build at end game. The numbers needed for top notch ac are incredible, and getting that gear is quite a grind. Top that off with the need to outfit the same build with dps gear and you have a lot of grind.

Thats my story and im sticking to it

[Juggle]

Really people, the whole player stance on AC is like a really bad rumor. Based on the level of misinformation, I'd have to guess that 95% of the people saying that AC is useless have never had a toon above 60 AC.

Really, people... either do some actual playtesting or listen to those who have. Don't parrot what seems popular to say. Just because you don't have the imagination to figure out how to DPS with a big AC doesn't mean it's not possible.

Rogue splashed with monk and possibly one other class can yield some incredible DPS while still self-buffing well into the 80s. Naturally, the proof is in the pudding, so I invite any nonbeliever on Khyber to group with my AC build (who is essentially retired because he's the freakin easy button of DDO).

Couldn't have said it better myself. This whole thread is a bit tiresome. It's a circular conversation between the classic noobs of ddo who think "Oh fee fi fo fum my ginormous greataxe is uber leet dips, me no need AC" and the people who actually have AC. It's entirely useful if played right. If you're not gonna smother your character in guards, then you have room to boost your AC ya know

It's all about play-style and what you would rather have on your toon really...

[elraido]

Blatantly false. Where would you get such an idea? Certainly not from actual experience.

Really people, the whole player stance on AC is like a really bad rumor. Based on the level of misinformation, I'd have to guess that 95% of the people saying that AC is useless have never had a toon above 60 AC.

Really, people... either do some actual playtesting or listen to those who have. Don't parrot what seems popular to say. Just because you don't have the imagination to figure out how to DPS with a big AC doesn't mean it's not possible.

Rogue splashed with monk and possibly one other class can yield some incredible DPS while still self-buffing well into the 80s. Naturally, the proof is in the pudding, so I invite any nonbeliever on Khyber to group with my AC build (who is essentially retired because he's the freakin easy button of DDO).

Yes and no. It seems like some missions in Amarath on elite, my main can stand there shouting, "are you not entertained!!!" and not get hurt for very much. i.e. the hall ways in sins when all the orthons and bearded devils "ambush" you every 10 steps. Then there are other missions where I sit there asking why a 85 ac isn't doing anything at all...espeically epic....and then crank that up to 90 while blocking with a 30 dr...and I am still getting cracked for 50 a shot repeatedly.