Cleric: Jump or Balance

[Tiamos]

Over the weekend a friend and I decided to roll a pair of clerics together. We're both going with very similar combat caster builds. For the sake of this post, the only difference between the two is that my cleric has been putting skill points into jump and concentration while my friend's cleric only has the skill points for concentration. We're both level 5 now and I've noticed a few things:

1. Since both clerics have modified jump scores in the negative range (mine is -1 my friend's is -5), our jumps appear to be the same height.

2. Very low jump scores are pathetic. It is impossible to jump over many crates, you have to climb them by running into them.

3. When facing creatures with trip / grease, we spend a lot of time on the ground. Enough so that it can be deadly (the only time either of us died was because of grease spam from iron defenders).

With this, I'm wondering if it would have been better to put my skill points into balance instead of jump. My reasoning is: While it would be awesome to have a decent jump skill so I can emulate those obnoxious kobold shamans that jump around; a jump clicky / pot can be used whereas there isn't such a thing for balance.

Should I A: Reroll the cleric and only put points into balance, B: Keep the cleric and put all future skill points into balance, or C: Keep the cleric and continue putting skill points into jump?

[Impaqt]

get rid of the stupid Full plate. Especially when dealing with mobs that Trip or when you want to jump.

Carry Items of Jump and Balance.

The phenomenons of "Clerics cant jump" and "Clerics spend to much time on their backs" is completely self inflicted.

[JollySwagMan]

When being attacked by critters that use trip attacks, try shield-blocking - it will prevent you from being knocked down. You can also do this when you see an enemy's about to inflict a poison attack to prevent being poisoned. You can also shield block when tripped or helpless to mitigate some of the damage.

Skillpoint wise, you're not going to make much of a dent in either your Jump/Balance skill. However once you shed the heavy armor you will be able to jump around around more easily. I prefer Balance since Jump potions are easily available, whereas Balance boosts are mostly just from accessories (which one might forget to equip sometimes).

[k1ngp1n]

get rid of the stupid Full plate. Especially when dealing with mobs that Trip or when you want to jump.

Carry Items of Jump and Balance.

The phenomenons of "Clerics cant jump" and "Clerics spend to much time on their backs" is completely self inflicted.

This. I stop wearing plate on my cleric-ish toons somewhere around level 10. Also, IMO, Balance > Jump when the decision must be made, to a certain point. 10 or so into balance goes a long way, after which I turn to jump.

[Tiamos]

Hey thanks for the information. +1s all around for that! I ditched my shield already because I noticed it reduced my attack speed while swinging, but it didn't click that I could ditch my full plate to jump better. Probably should do that when you need to swim somewhere too.

It's especially useful to know you can use block to prevent so many things. Does that work if you don't have a shield equipped?

Edit: Would it be worth rerolling to move the 4 points from jump into balance? I'm not sure if I want to replay the character through those levels or invest in a heart of wood over 4(8) skill points.

[Phidius]

Balance > Jump IMHO. You can use a jump item (up to +15) and a jump clickie (low level is +10, level 18 belt in Amrath is +30) - it isn't hard to hit the 40 cap for jump.

Balance, however, is harder to get. You can get a +15 item, but there's no spell similar to the Jump spell.

If you plan on spending any time in the Twilight Forge, your entire party will thank you for getting your Balance to 39+

Not all cleric builds can afford many points in Balance, but I thought maybe your combat casting builds might be sporting 2-3 monk levels for the higher wisdom while in stance...

[Samadhi]

Both. I rarely make a character that can't afford a 14 (or racially adjusted) starting Int.

[JollySwagMan]

Hey thanks for the information. +1s all around for that! I ditched my shield already because I noticed it reduced my attack speed while swinging, but it didn't click that I could ditch my full plate to jump better. Probably should do that when you need to swim somewhere too.

It's especially useful to know you can use block to prevent so many things. Does that work if you don't have a shield equipped?

Edit: Would it be worth rerolling to move the 4 points from jump into balance? I'm not sure if I want to replay the character through those levels or invest in a heart of wood over 4(8) skill points.

Thanks

1. Even on my low level pure Clerics I like to keep a robe handy for jumping/swimming - makes switching that little bit easier

2. It seems to work for me when using handwraps, however some items such as bows, scrolls or throwing weapons make your block less useful. Even if you have a shield equipped!

3. At level 5 it's definately not worth buying a reincarnation. Rerolling is an option, but it's not too much of a problem really. There's plenty of time to make build mistakes that are actually worth rerolling over - by which time you may have acquired enough favour for 32 point or Vet status builds on your server

[phalaeo]

Balance!

When you get to higher level play, you can run Amrath for a Morah's Belt- all your jump fantasies will come true! It's a belt with three clickies of 15 minute JUMP. One of the most treasured items in my Cleric's backpack.

Balance boosts can be obtained on items, but there's no "Balance" spell like there is Jump. I advise putting points into Balance, most definitely.

As far as getting the hops before you can get to Amrath, I carry two jump clickies and ~50 Jump pots on my lower level Clerics. I also try to get boots of + Springing, so Feather Fall of Springing, etc.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Don't make STR a dump stat on a caster neither. It's funny how so many casters figure they won't need much since they plan to just cast but starting with a 10-12 STR is highly advisable for any casting class.

The only builds that should be wearing full plate are ones that plan on specifically making an AC build.....and that is some extreme dedication...learn to live without AC, because I can pretty much assure u unless you lucked out on some really nice gear your cleric's AC will not matter endgame.

The advantage of mobility far outweighs any kind of negligible damage mitigation you will get from AC unless like I said u made a dedicated AC build from the start.

Do a quest with CR 2 worgs, even if they miss you 70% of the time they will kill you no problem if ur constantly on your back. It does not take much jump neither to get over a lot of enemies in this game, and carrying a stack of jump potions is easy....this is another necessary tactic for survival. And I cannot emphasize enough how important especially at lower levels it is to carry lesser restore POTIONS...not wands or scrolls, but potions....because you are gonna get zapped with ray of enfeeblement or some kind or energy drain constantly in this game. Combine that with an already lower balance and jump score and your a sitting duck.

Lesser Restore potions allow you to save mana, and not have to swap from a wand or scroll back to your weapon. And with the severity of how constant energy drain type spells are, you can really be in a bad situation quick if you don't have any, and u'll blow all your SP if you keep using the actual spell.

[Tiamos]

Whoa! It's great to see such community support.

My friend and I already have 32 point builds and veteran status: We subscribed for a month and got melee characters up to level 16 just for that purpose. (Planning on going premium for now) The builds we used are as follows:

My build
Drow
8 strength
10 dexterity
12 constitution
18 wisdom
10 intelligence
16 charisma

Feats Selected:
Toughness
Extend Spell

Skill Points: Concentration and Jump (going to switch to balance but not sure if I should re-roll to do it)
Selected Deity: Vulkoor

Goals: Higher charisma for turning and extra Divine Vitality usage, Vulkoor to try out the scorpion summon (I know it only works at lower levels, later on I'll switch to the deity that grants a 10 minute Heal)

My Friend's build:
32 point Elf
8 strength
10 dexterity
14 constitution
18 wisdom
8 intelligence
14 charisma

Feats Selected:
Toughness
Extend Spell

Skill points: Concentration
Selected Deity: Elf specific one (the one that allows the rez ability)

Goals: Higher con for more survivability, Divine Vitality usage on friend, Elf deity to get earlier rez

At level 6 we both plan on picking up Empower Healing for radiant servant. Sometime after that will be Maximize and Heighten (for blade barrier and crowd control).

All level up attributes points are going into wisdom. We don't have any tomes for use at the moment.


A few questions:
Are these builds good?
Would it be worth re rolling to move jump into balance? (Don't have a lot of time so I'm kinda hesitant on this)
Is it worth multi-classing into monk as a caster cleric? I was under the impression you wanted to stay pure so you can maximize spell DC. I'm also not convinced that evasion would be that beneficial for a low reflex character.
Should we ditch the full plate at low level and switch to robes / leather?
Should I have rolled Elf on my character so as to take advantage of the true resurrection from my friend?

[Phidius]

...
A few questions:
Are these builds good?
Would it be worth re rolling to move jump into balance? (Don't have a lot of time so I'm kinda hesitant on this)
...

"Good" is pretty subjective - I'd recommend keeping them, and just have fun playing the game. There's plenty of time to get all hard and bitter, at which point you can re-roll to maximize the numbers.

...
Is it worth multi-classing into monk as a caster cleric? I was under the impression you wanted to stay pure so you can maximize spell DC. I'm also not convinced that evasion would be that beneficial for a low reflex character.
...

Splashing monk will hurt your spell penetration, not your spell DCs.

Spell penetration is based on your caster levels (pure cleric = 20 base spell pen. 18 cleric/2 monk = 18 base spell pen).

Your spell DCs are based on

1. the spell level (level 17 gives 9th level spells, Heighten means all of your spells DC's are considered 9th level)
2. your casting stat (Clerics use wisdom).

Splashing 1 level of monk gives you access to the Water stance which raises your wisdom by 2. It also gives you a free feat (Toughness is a good fit here) and gives you an AC bonus equal to your wisdom modifier as long as you are unencumbered, and not wearing armor or carrying a shield. To stay in Water stance, you also need to not carry non-monk weapons.

A second level of monk gives you evasion and another free feat. It's not difficult to get your reflex save high enough to get some use out of evasion - mid 20's will save you a bit of self-healing.

A 3rd level of monk gives you access to the Fists of Light, which can be a pretty potent way to get free healing if you're melee oriented. Probably not a good fit with a starting strength of 8, though.


Edit: it's worth pointing out that Water Stance applies a -2 penalty to strength, making it very hard to stay in water stance with a starting strength of 8 once you start pulling Full Plate out of chests.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Whoa! It's great to see such community support.

My friend and I already have 32 point builds and veteran status: We subscribed for a month and got melee characters up to level 16 just for that purpose. (Planning on going premium for now) The builds we used are as follows:

My build
Drow
8 strength
10 dexterity
12 constitution
18 wisdom
10 intelligence
16 charisma

Feats Selected:
Toughness
Extend Spell

Skill Points: Concentration and Jump (going to switch to balance but not sure if I should re-roll to do it)
Selected Deity: Vulkoor

Goals: Higher charisma for turning and extra Divine Vitality usage, Vulkoor to try out the scorpion summon (I know it only works at lower levels, later on I'll switch to the deity that grants a 10 minute Heal)

My Friend's build:
32 point Elf
8 strength
10 dexterity
14 constitution
18 wisdom
8 intelligence
14 charisma

Feats Selected:
Toughness
Extend Spell

Skill points: Concentration
Selected Deity: Elf specific one (the one that allows the rez ability)

Goals: Higher con for more survivability, Divine Vitality usage on friend, Elf deity to get earlier rez

At level 6 we both plan on picking up Empower Healing for radiant servant. Sometime after that will be Maximize and Heighten (for blade barrier and crowd control).

All level up attributes points are going into wisdom. We don't have any tomes for use at the moment.


A few questions:
Are these builds good?
They are definitely suitable builds, and even tho I will get a lot of probably negative backlash for saying this, you really can get away with a 10 CON on a cleric as long as you take Toughness along with both enhancements. I've had a few 8 base STR builds and I will never go back to it......lowest starting STR I will go these days is 10-12......8 is EXTREMELY restrictive.


Would it be worth re rolling to move jump into balance? (Don't have a lot of time so I'm kinda hesitant on this) Meh, u'll be ok, ur going to have to overcome shortcomings no matter what you build, it's the way the game was designed, ur not meant to have every advantage.....even experienced MC's with a ton of gear have to overcome adversity constantly.

Is it worth multi-classing into monk as a caster cleric? I was under the impression you wanted to stay pure so you can maximize spell DC. I'm also not convinced that evasion would be that beneficial for a low reflex character. No, it's not worth it, if ur going to be an offensive casting cleric stay pure...end of story.

Should we ditch the full plate at low level and switch to robes / leather? If ur not going to wear FP and go for AC wear robes and outfits, u'll get great effects at lower levels and they are insta-swaps, whereas armor takes a long times to change. U'll also be amazed at how much more mobility even without ranks in jump and balance u will have.

Should I have rolled Elf on my character so as to take advantage of the true resurrection from my friend? Very minor issue, hardly anything to be concerned about.

In short, your builds are fine, you can make it to and through endgame with no problems. Learn the ropes and you will come across the little tricks here and there to overcome little things like balance and jump issues. BTW.....two absolutely insanely awesome items you can get regarding jump and balance.

Get the Marshwalker set from the Red Fens pack......wearing both gives u +7 balance, +7 jump and 15% striding. My 13th level TRx1 cleric is still wearing this set and I LOVE IT!

Hobnail boots drop from the Co6 quest end reward list. ML7 +15 balance boots that are BtA.

These are both P2P packs if ur not aware but both very nice packs to invest in. Both of them offer some very nice XP as well.

oh and P.S. All ability increases go towards WISDOM and make sure you take Quicken as one of ur feats.

[biggin]

I've always taken balance over jump, but those are just playstyles choices, you can't really go wrong with either.

ALWAYS, no matter how you feel about a cleric, keep them around. Deleting a cleric is always a bad idea. The only thing you have to be able to do at end game raiding is heal. Even if you just log on every 3 days with it to help grind out those Shroud ingredients. It isn't like a melee where you have to invest a good amount of time/plat to make DR breakers, bloodstones, etc. Just a few metas and a Sup Pot 6 item and you can effectively heal any raid in game. The only problem with these types of clerics is that after you learn the ins and outs, you'll get bored and want to participate, but 8 STR kinds of paints you into a corner. Have fun with your toon, learn good SP management, then after you figure out your particular playstyle, roll up something that fits it.

[Bloodlance]

Balance

[Jiirix]

You may want to change your deity from vulkor to s. host. It allows you to use long swords,. that is imho the best weapon you can get on your cleric without taking a feat, suffering a -4 penalty or splashing an other class. And the slashing negates the damage reduction of zombies and allows you to use vorpal weapons. (you have to use puny sickles without it) And the big heal it provides is very good to. Changing the enhancements only costs plat and can be done every 3 days.