For the love of all that is holy

[DrunkenBuddha]

I get wanting to try out new and exciting builds. I've had the occasional, "hey, let's do something stupid today" moment. But seriously what is it with the no-con builds?!

Disclaimer: I am not an elitist. I am not uber. In my static group I am that guy that laughed at that guy who fell into the lava at DQ1. Mostly because he has his act together and knows what he is doing and statistically that should have been me since otherwise, nearly without exception, I am doing the dying and they are laughing and/or cursing at me. Yes, I occasionally cast firewall on fire immune monsters, but I swear its because my polar ray button is right next to it. *ahem* Regardless, a number of times in the past few days I've run into builds with 8 con. No toughness. No defensive buffs. When you can get one-shot by kobolds at level 9 - Houston there's a problem.

How is your new, unique and exciting build any fun if you can't make it past the first room? Sure, the max Int/Wis Repeater Build drow rogue with Zen archery sounds "wild and crazy" ...and let's be honest, hasn't everyone wanted to build a max Int/Cha drow sorc without haste, blur or firewall? I mean, I get it. But no con? No toughness? How is the game fun riding in someone's backpack for 40% of the quests? I would just get bored and frustrated. Okay, perhaps it is an intriguing way to pike through a quest.

I made it point to grab every heavy fort, gfl, +con, toughness feat I could fit into my build because I thought it was, frankly, disrespectful to die simply because I don't have a sensible amount of hp. It was a waste of my group's resources to have to carry me around, and well, with a soulstone in your pack that's potentially one less item of loot one could grab. Plus it was, and still is, a bit embarrassing to die when I should know better. With a decent amount of hp, my death means I need to improve my skills since there's no other excuse. It is forcing me to be a better player to keep up with the group.

I am not advocating 18 con sorcs/drow/rogues, whatever - but why wouldn't you make an effort, of some sort, to at least increase the amount of time you can actually "play" within a given quest? I don't get it. It doesn't help that, without fail, the same guild is involved. Are the officers telling new guys to do this? 44hp at level 9 doesn't cut it. Not having useful spells/skills for the group is one thing, but not even yourself is another.

Everyone says the "CON is not a dump stat" mantra, but can someone give me a compelling, logical reason for the other side of the spectrum?

[Ssmooth]

44hp at level 9 doesn't cut it. Not having useful spells/skills for the group is one thing, but not even yourself is another.

Everyone says the "CON is not a dump stat" mantra, but can someone give me a compelling, logical reason for the other side of the spectrum?

Um, no

[teh_meh]

I <3 Con

[elujin]

8/6 con is greath if you like back pack rides

[chloe5819]

On a sidebar note when I'm playing my Clr, I've run into pally's in the past who forget to use con and focus on their str, dex for twf and chr for their spell points. Personally I dont expect most rogues/sorc's to have a lot of hp it's nice if they do but I dont hold rely on them to be up in the front lines but to understand the game and how to keep themselves alive with their specialties. Where you expect these builds to have more hp I just treat them as if they aren't noobs. Just my opinion on the matter dont expect to be right or wrong.

[elujin]

a 12 con elf is low hp a 8/6 con toon (any class some more then outhers) are a one hit ding fest

[Perceval]

Compelling arguement for Con as a Dump Stat. Ok I am up for a challenge. You have to much money in your monthly budget for DDO and want to waste it by spending money on sibery's cakes while you are soloing. Why are you soloing, you ask? Well after 3-4 parties word will get around the server that you used con as a dump stat and no one will party with you anymore.

The only way I would use con as a dump stat is if I knew I was not going to be within 100 yards of a mob ever. Healbot cleric comes to mind, taking 8-10 con is only 20 HP at level 20, so with all the other **** you can put on to increase hp is not all that much.

GIMPS for the WIN

[DrunkenBuddha]

Was finishing Delara's part 1 on elite. The sorc dies and someone asks, who died? The sorc types "who else but the guy with 42hp." Yeah. After that, multiple people had to "do something else," including myself as I was not relishing the idea of running the entire chain babysitting a 42hp toon. Not to mention no haste, blur, etc (even on himself). But to each their own. Again though, same guild.

[CaptainCameo]

I have a rogue who has only 295 hp. To my knowledge, it's pretty low for lvl 19. In a raid, I usually only have about 48 Ac. But even being as gimp as I am, I'm still able to stay alive through a whole raid and actually make myself useful.

How do I do this? I play smart. When I start to take serious damage, I jump back and use some pots. I maneuver behind the enemies so they can't hit me. And lastly, I stay in the group. I don't run out in front. I let others do that for me.

My rogue is a support character. The type that disables devices, uses a combination of destruction, weakening and vorpal effects and does about 90 extra backstabbing damage per hit. I am at my best, when I'm in the middle of the group.

But having 44 hp at level 9? um... that's even more gimp than me. I'd like to find this person telling people to do this and smack them upside the head.

[Tendare]

Was finishing Delara's part 1 on elite. The sorc dies and someone asks, who died? The sorc types "who else but the guy with 42hp." Yeah. After that, multiple people had to "do something else," including myself as I was not relishing the idea of running the entire chain babysitting a 42hp toon. Not to mention no haste, blur, etc (even on himself). But to each their own. Again though, same guild.

I have run with a few members of "said guild" and yes there are those that believe they do not need Con or have no clue that you need HP in this game. Once I was told by a level 12 wizard from "said guild" who had been playing 6 months that he knew everything there was to know about being a wizard. This was after I questioned his HP and ability to CC after he died 3 times in the first five minutes in Madstone. I was speechless.

I also ran into a rogue the other day in a raid that was bragging that he only had 213 HP. Granted he didn't die once and I watched him engage many mobs and participate in the raid. But I sure expected to be picking him up off the floor frequently. Now either he was a very good player who could handle the low HP without being a burden to the group or he was just extremely lucky that day. You choose.

[darkrhavyn]

Con isnt a dump stat...but for devil's argument' sake...

<crickets chirping>


Oh hell, I cant even justify a 6 con elf anything....even my healbot cleric who NEVER hits anything except portals and held mobs started with 8, then a +2 tome, and a lesser res later has a 12 before a +6 item....and a GFL item...and hells bells I dont have a character that doesnt have toughness....its the first feat I take on ANY character, regardless.



Do you have to have an 18 con to not be a backpack ornament...no...but you have to be a very skilled player and have other great gear. The game has changed radically since the days when the cap was 10 and con wasn't as big a deal.

[Olarim]

Lol! I'm one of those people that play all ends of the spectrum: High AC/HP/Intimidate Tank, to the squishy rogue/wizard builds that can be pretty awesome at mid level, but every once in a while I find a build like my drow rogue/bard with 6con who specializes in CC and party buffs. I stay alive by staying with my group and not attacking anything I just keep my songs and buffs up on the party so the clerics can heal and the melee's can melee.

BTW, did you ever notice that having the highest kills on the kill counter doesn't grant you any special exp(aside from conquest which is granted to all, not just the one with highest kills) ... So for my bard, doing his job: traps, buffs, cc, and not dying/fighting, he still gets experience at quest completion.


To be honest though, he's my '***-were you thinking?!' build and he's alot of fun to play, but I will never take him into raids unless everyone wants a good laugh. I know I always do when he dies!

Edit: I think my point was, I dont play like a zerg-happy-noob who runs headlong into battle with addled brains and no con. I just play like a simpering coward who makes things dance BECAUSE I have no con xD

[teh_meh]

My rogue is pushing 450 HP now and I still have a lot of high level gear to chase down. I don't see any reason why I can't top 500, especially if I come across a +3 or +4 CON tome.

It's made a tremendous difference in staying power than when I was hovering around 390.

Dare I say it but CON > bacon

[Lycurgus]

People obviously fail to appreciate the generosity and consideration that the no-con build shows to the overworked healers of ddo. Haven't you ever listened to healers obsessively re-evaluating their gear/stats/enhancements in a never ending struggle to obtain max crit heals on those inconsiderate warforged melee types? Consider, for a moment, the stress and demands placed on healers in their efforts to keep toasters on their feet? **you took toughness HOW many times???** It's enough to whittle their fingers to nubs, grind their teeth to the gumline, and basically promote a mental implosion leaving them in a gibbering puddle from which may be heard the occasional whimpered "but i'm not specced to reconstruct..."

The no-con build is a team player, his health bar can zoom from empty to full with a simple click of a cure light wounds from a ranger for god's sake. Ask not the purpose of the no-con build. Ask instead why you want to punish your healers with your 700+ hp build.

Stop cleric abuse now, vive le no-con.

[phalaeo]

People obviously fail to appreciate the generosity and consideration that the no-con build shows to the overworked healers of ddo. Haven't you ever listened to healers obsessively re-evaluating their gear/stats/enhancements in a never ending struggle to obtain max crit heals on those inconsiderate warforged melee types? Consider, for a moment, the stress and demands placed on healers in their efforts to keep toasters on their feet? **you took toughness HOW many times???** It's enough to whittle their fingers to nubs, grind their teeth to the gumline, and basically promote a mental implosion leaving them in a gibbering puddle from which may be heard the occasional whimpered "but i'm not specced to reconstruct..."

The no-con build is a team player, his health bar can zoom from empty to full with a simple click of a cure light wounds from a ranger for god's sake. Ask not the purpose of the no-con build. Ask instead why you want to punish your healers with your 700+ hp build.

Stop cleric abuse now, vive le no-con.

If you weren't my boyfirend, I'd neg-rep you into oblivion!

Great, now Argo knows what I complain about at home and off mic...

[EustaceTrevelyan]

I get wanting to try out new and exciting builds. I've had the occasional, "hey, let's do something stupid today" moment. But seriously what is it with the no-con builds?!

Disclaimer: I am not an elitist. I am not uber. In my static group I am that guy that laughed at that guy who fell into the lava at DQ1. Mostly because he has his act together and knows what he is doing and statistically that should have been me since otherwise, nearly without exception, I am doing the dying and they are laughing and/or cursing at me. Yes, I occasionally cast firewall on fire immune monsters, but I swear its because my polar ray button is right next to it. *ahem* Regardless, a number of times in the past few days I've run into builds with 8 con. No toughness. No defensive buffs. When you can get one-shot by kobolds at level 9 - Houston there's a problem.

How is your new, unique and exciting build any fun if you can't make it past the first room? Sure, the max Int/Wis Repeater Build drow rogue with Zen archery sounds "wild and crazy" ...and let's be honest, hasn't everyone wanted to build a max Int/Cha drow sorc without haste, blur or firewall? I mean, I get it. But no con? No toughness? How is the game fun riding in someone's backpack for 40% of the quests? I would just get bored and frustrated. Okay, perhaps it is an intriguing way to pike through a quest.

I made it point to grab every heavy fort, gfl, +con, toughness feat I could fit into my build because I thought it was, frankly, disrespectful to die simply because I don't have a sensible amount of hp. It was a waste of my group's resources to have to carry me around, and well, with a soulstone in your pack that's potentially one less item of loot one could grab. Plus it was, and still is, a bit embarrassing to die when I should know better. With a decent amount of hp, my death means I need to improve my skills since there's no other excuse. It is forcing me to be a better player to keep up with the group.

I am not advocating 18 con sorcs/drow/rogues, whatever - but why wouldn't you make an effort, of some sort, to at least increase the amount of time you can actually "play" within a given quest? I don't get it. It doesn't help that, without fail, the same guild is involved. Are the officers telling new guys to do this? 44hp at level 9 doesn't cut it. Not having useful spells/skills for the group is one thing, but not even yourself is another.

Everyone says the "CON is not a dump stat" mantra, but can someone give me a compelling, logical reason for the other side of the spectrum?

No, not really. At some point, it seems that they kind of made con necessary on all characters. 18 Con on a drow WOULD be a bit much, yeah, but if you're going sorc/wiz, max out casting stat, maybe level off wis/dex to 10 for saves if you have enough pts, put enough str so you can carry stuff, and then pump con as high as you can get it. Casters it's easy, since you only have the one stat to really focus on (I leave multiclass builds aside here), and everything else is shoring up weaknesses and getting con up as high as you can. Pity the con races are also minus to cha, or cha/wis.

[JollySwagMan]

Okay, here goes:

A team of no-con casters could die so often in a Wraith-heavy quest that they spawn an army of Wraiths, who they then use Control Undead upon. Because the Wraiths can go through walls they might be able to complete the quest for the party, who would need to stay near the resurrection shrine in order to maintain a steady supply of more Wraiths.

[Dunfalach]

People obviously fail to appreciate the generosity and consideration that the no-con build shows to the overworked healers of ddo. Haven't you ever listened to healers obsessively re-evaluating their gear/stats/enhancements in a never ending struggle to obtain max crit heals on those inconsiderate warforged melee types? Consider, for a moment, the stress and demands placed on healers in their efforts to keep toasters on their feet? **you took toughness HOW many times???** It's enough to whittle their fingers to nubs, grind their teeth to the gumline, and basically promote a mental implosion leaving them in a gibbering puddle from which may be heard the occasional whimpered "but i'm not specced to reconstruct..."

The no-con build is a team player, his health bar can zoom from empty to full with a simple click of a cure light wounds from a ranger for god's sake. Ask not the purpose of the no-con build. Ask instead why you want to punish your healers with your 700+ hp build.

Stop cleric abuse now, vive le no-con.

Absolutely hilarious. I applaud you.

[Dunfalach]

Okay, here goes:

A team of no-con casters could die so often in a Wraith-heavy quest that they spawn an army of Wraiths, who they then use Control Undead upon. Because the Wraiths can go through walls they might be able to complete the quest for the party, who would need to stay near the resurrection shrine in order to maintain a steady supply of more Wraiths.

Eeeeenterestink. I don't think I've tried Control Undead on a wraith yet. I used it on a Spectre once. Watching that Spectre fight a couple of Zombies and another Spectre was amusing.

[Maxmillian]

DDO is a video game for arguments sake. You have finite hit points, and you penalized for dying if you run out of hitpoints in terms of XP...so YEAH!!!! Constitution is important. Minimum of 16 on almost every build, and never less than 14. IMHO...just sayin.