Pali hate

[westudi]

I was just denied admittance to a PUG run by someone I had ran with before, because I was a paladin. I asked him why, and he responded, "do you ever wonder why you die alot?"

I laughed, informed him that I was a TR, and that the build (I went with the first one) had thus far proven to be fairly resilient (I'm nearly at level 13). He responded with an apparently sarcastic, "sure."

In all honesty, I think I have only died about five times with this toon since TR, and that was due to playing a tad recklessly. With the gear this toon has, he can pretty much buff himself with just about everything he needs, can get out of any trouble he gets in, and still do a substantial amount of damage.

So, what gives? Why the hate? I would say check myddo for analysis, but it still shows my past life.

The funny thing is, it looks like he might be going for completionist. I wonder how he will cope with having to play such a gimped class.

[EyeRekon]

As one who doesn't understand Paladin strengths/weaknesses I can also attest to a general Pally hate. The sense I get is they are rather unspectacular in every way. Its a warrior type that some don't appear to really consider DPS. It may be a consequence of the usefulness of the prestige and enhancement lines.

With my own casual, non-empiracle observations. The fewer Pallys in a raid (replaced by pretty much anything else) the better the party performance.

Are they considered solo-ish and don't contribute as much to a party? I don't know.

I may be entirely off-base but am trying to relate.

[NaturalHazard]

you got LOH right? that makes you more survivable than those uber fighters and barbs? you can heal yourself right? dont need a nanny bot to hold your hand 24/7?

[elujin]

what a noob at pally hating evry one knows you need to "say omg pallys have low dps lol !!1! my barbs dps is mutch more leet lol "



saying pallys don't have what it takes to survive with buffs and self heals is just stupid .

[Dylvish]

As one who doesn't understand Paladin strengths/weaknesses I can also attest to a general Pally hate. The sense I get is they are rather unspectacular in every way. Its a warrior type that some don't appear to really consider DPS. It may be a consequence of the usefulness of the prestige and enhancement lines.

With my own casual, non-empiracle observations. The fewer Pallys in a raid (replaced by pretty much anything else) the better the party performance.

Are they considered solo-ish and don't contribute as much to a party? I don't know.

I may be entirely off-base but am trying to relate.

Paladin's greatest strength is that they are arguably the toughest class around when it comes to trying to kill them. They get decent health, wear full plate (although with game mechanics, many go for skirts and evasion later on), Full BaB, some of the best saves in the game, and Lay on Hands, which is pretty much a full health bar, instant cast heal. They also get some nice self buffs, and can heal themselves with spells and wands in a pinch.
As for Offense, currently most go Chalice spec, which is the demon dps spec, and dual weild. They do bonus light damage (at level 20 if they are pure, they do +6d6 light damage vs evil outsiders each hit). They can do some pretty amazing burst damage with Exalted Smites (at lvl 20 again just for a number to give for reference, ES IV gives Charisma bonus x2 as a +to-hit. Also gives +2 critical threat range, bonus damage based on level, and can hit up to 3x if you are dual wielding). Divine Might IV gives +4 damage to each weapon as a buff. Divine Sacrifice is another clicky-hit, that does weapon damage +9d6 light damage and has a +1 critical threat range.

Paladin's are one of the clicky-est classes in game, but can do some very respectable damage, are amazingly resilient, and their aura buffs everyone around them with AC, resists to fear, +saves, +concentration.


Now you have a quick and basic breakdown on their strengths. Their weaknesses? They dont do as consistant damage as a Barb or Rogue (vs mobs that are not immune to SA damage anyway). They are also a very stat hungry class, and notably tight on feats / enhancements. They do not get evasion as a class skill (listed simply because many feel that is a weakness to any melee class).

Paladins bring a lot of good to any group or raid. The OP had an idiot that he was talking to.

[Sirea]

As one who doesn't understand Paladin strengths/weaknesses I can also attest to a general Pally hate. The sense I get is they are rather unspectacular in every way. Its a warrior type that some don't appear to really consider DPS. It may be a consequence of the usefulness of the prestige and enhancement lines.

With my own casual, non-empiracle observations. The fewer Pallys in a raid (replaced by pretty much anything else) the better the party performance.

Are they considered solo-ish and don't contribute as much to a party? I don't know.

I may be entirely off-base but am trying to relate.

Sounds like you've played with some ****** paladins.

[sephiroth1084]

As one who doesn't understand Paladin strengths/weaknesses I can also attest to a general Pally hate. The sense I get is they are rather unspectacular in every way. Its a warrior type that some don't appear to really consider DPS. It may be a consequence of the usefulness of the prestige and enhancement lines.

With my own casual, non-empiracle observations. The fewer Pallys in a raid (replaced by pretty much anything else) the better the party performance.

Are they considered solo-ish and don't contribute as much to a party? I don't know.

I may be entirely off-base but am trying to relate.

This is false in so many ways.

Let's compare:
Fighter gets:
+3 Str (+1.5 damage)
Greater Weapon Specialization (+4 damage)
Weapon Enhancements (+2 damage)
Kensai III weapon bonuses (+2-+4 damage depending on weapon)
Kensai II Str Surge +8 Str (+4 to +6 damage depending on weapon)
Haste Boost (burst % damage)
Capstone for +10% double strike
____
+13.5 to 17.5 damage from abilities gained

Paladins get:
Divine Might IV (+8 damage)
Divine Favor (+3 damage)
Divine Sacrifice +9d6 every 5 attacks or so (averages to 4-7 damage per swing)
Zeal for +10% double strike
Capstone for +1d6 damage vs. everything and +1d6 damage vs. evil outsiders and undead (+7 damage on average vs. most raid enemies)
smite evil (big burst damage)
_____
+22 damage on the low end of average

Now, these comparisons don't include a lot of variables, and are assuming fairly specific (pure) builds, but even taking some things away, the paladin is still looking pretty good, and I gave fighters their PrE but not paladins.If we include KotC, that'd be another +3d6 (4d6?) damage vs. evil outsiders (even more with the ToD set). If we instead figured in Defender of Siberys, that would be +4 Str for another +2 damage.

Paladins get solid DPS, not as much as barbarians and rogues, but solid, and you aren't turning away fighters and rangers are you?

Add to that the fact that paladins have better saves than almost anyone, self-healing, self-buffing, and some inherent immunities, and you end up with a lot of people scratching their heads at the ridiculous opinion that paladins are somehow a subpar option for a party.

[sephiroth1084]

I tried joining an LFM for Church and the Cult, which was looking for paladins and rogues for their last 2 spots. My guy had a 2-fighter splash and got declined because he wasn't a pure paladin. I explained that he was a double TR, dripping with twink gear, and that 2 fighter in no way detracts from a paladin before level 20 in any way, and yet, I got turned down.

Puzzling people puzzle me.

[Freeman]

I was just denied admittance to a PUG run by someone I had ran with before, because I was a paladin. I asked him why, and he responded, "do you ever wonder why you die alot?"

I'm confused. Were you denied because you were a paladin, or because you'd run with the person before and died too much? From what you wrote, it sounds more like the leader had a problem with the player, not the class.

[westudi]

I'm confused. Were you denied because you were a paladin, or because you'd run with the person before and died too much? From what you wrote, it sounds more like the leader had a problem with the player, not the class.

No, he specifically said he was denying me based on class. I've played with him using other toons, and not frequently at that. I doubt he "remembers" me in any way.

[Khroc]

No, he specifically said he was denying me based on class. I've played with him using other toons, and not frequently at that. I doubt he "remembers" me in any way.

Then he is a noob. The game has vets and new players and a good % of the new players just don't get it yet. Hopefully someday they will. I was told in a shroud run last week that my barb takes too much damage. This was after I informed the party that I had only a 17 AC. They all freaked and wondered if the healers coud keep me up. They just don't get it... yet.

You can lead a noob to water but you can't make them *&^%$ !!

[pSINNa]

Yeh, the quest/raid will fail because there's a pally in it, or a ranger in it, or a bard in it, or a battle cleric/fvs in it, or a monk in it, or...... (/sarcasm off) because the leader is ignorant.

Ignorant people are in the majority, it's just basic statistics, it's easier to run your own groups, put 'all welcome' in the lfm, and enjoy letting everyone play what they've rolled with a relaxed leader that knows what he's about helping with the teamwork part (whilst having some fun).

As an oldish english punk band once sang 'That's,,, en-ter-tainment' xD

Coit out~

[Meetch1972]

Some pally hate may be understandable to some degree, for a certain build or playstyle perhaps, or maybe even lack of a minimum setup of gear.

I say that because when my pally was younger I ran through a quest (Madstone?) in GH with a friend of mine doing the heals. He commented that my character seemed to be a lot more robust than the pally that had just left the party, and he was happy that he didn't have to babysit me like he did the last guy - at a similar level. I didn't think I was doing anything special, and this character would not be considered optimal. He's still not optimal, but has been one of the last few standing when a lag spike hit during shroud part 4 and we lost 7 or 8 party members, leaving a healer, a caster and 2 or 3 "DPS" to finish the job including my "gimp" paladin.

It might be possible that some of this sub-optimal nature of this character tipped it over a certain survivability point which isn't necessary when you have a certain mix of maxed healing/buffing capabilities that my paladin can't match (and would hence be unable to run Epic effectively) - I dunno. But at end-game PUGging VoD I've recently found him getting the sole hate aggro when the intim isn't there on the boss, and that's with the 20% hate reduction from the Tharnes set, so his damage output can't be toooo bad.

So yes, some paladins are gimp. So are some other melee classes, some bards, some casters, some healers, some exploiters... if they're not played to suit the way they are built and equipped, expect them to suck.

[Grecan]

I really don't have something to add regarding the OP, i agree with most of the above posts, like no. 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13...

My contribution will be a musical one, like the majority of my posts

As an oldish english punk band once sang 'That's,,, en-ter-tainment' xD

I think calling The Jam a punk band is somewhat misleading. I guess they had punk elements, but there was much more to it. And this is the song you mention.


p.s: I <3 Paul Weller

[Coldest]

In all honesty, I think I have only died about five times with this toon since TR, and that was due to playing a tad recklessly.

If you want to know for sure just /death count to find out. Im betting you've perished more than you think you have.

As far as Pali hate, you can thank Junts for this.

[TFPAQ]

If you want to know for sure just /death count to find out. Im betting you've perished more than you think you have.

As far as Pali hate, you can thank Junts for this.

You a bad person ... nicely done though ...

[Bobthesponge]

If you want to know for sure just /death count to find out. Im betting you've perished more than you think you have.

Arrrgg!!! beat me to it...

[LuckyLuke2]

I was just denied admittance to a PUG run by someone I had ran with before, because I was a paladin. I asked him why, and he responded, "do you ever wonder why you die alot?"

I laughed, informed him that I was a TR, and that the build (I went with the first one) had thus far proven to be fairly resilient (I'm nearly at level 13). He responded with an apparently sarcastic, "sure."

For me that's an obvious reason not the party with that player (ever) again on any toon.

Some people just have that narrow mindset that applies in some other MMO's where you "need" single character roles to be able to fulfil a mission/raid (tank/healer/dps). As far as the pally hate is concerned, I regularly get declined for quests/raids with my pally too. I usually do not get any response either when asking the party/raid leader why he actually refused me. It becomes quite funny if the some person afterwards stalks my fvs into joining his party or raid and gets a simple "No" as an answer. I know, this is a silly and revengeful attitude but I simply can not group up with people that have that narrow mindset.

My (composed of former DDO EU players) guild recently ran a HoX/VoD/Shroud with 4 pallies, 2 fvs'ses, 1 bard, 2 rogues, 2 rangers and a monk in the 17 to 20 level range (only 4 lvl 20's if I'm not mistaken). According to the pally haters and min/max stereotypers, we should have wiped ... :-).

[Krag]

My (composed of former DDO EU players) guild recently ran a HoX/VoD/Shroud with 4 pallies, 2 fvs'ses, 1 bard, 2 rogues, 2 rangers and a monk in the 17 to 20 level range (only 4 lvl 20's if I'm not mistaken). According to the pally haters and min/max stereotypers, we should have wiped ... :-).

HoX/VoD/Shroud are not only extremely easy but VoD and Shroud bosses are paladins favorites.

[LuckyLuke2]

HoX/VoD/Shroud are not only extremely easy but VoD and Shroud bosses are paladins favorites.

Euhrm ... sooooooooo ? What is the "lesson learnt" of your statement then ? (since I have read about quite a few fails on these raids on this forum).