Need a reason for Reaver's Refuge quests on hard and elite difficulties

[Impaqt]

I hate to break it to you, but renown is useless and I have enough tomes. so do you. yes, there are a tiny handful of useful things in the random loot tables. not nearly enough to justify going out of your way for.... and that is a major problem that the reaver's refuge illustrates well.

You cannot balance the entire game around players like you and I.

[dkyle]

You folks are confusing chance to drop and AMout of things you get.

There's no real distinction. Expected drops per run is what ultimately matters. The OP proposes a reasonable increase in expected runes per run as difficulty increases.

there is 0 chance 2 or 3 or 5 Eardwellers will drop. There is 0 chance one person will get 2 named items out of the end chest for Mindsunder.

If there weren't a hard limit, the chance would be infinitesimally small anyway. It's a loot table simplification that has little effect on expected drops per run.

you are not being rewarded by running quests on Normal and above.. you are being penalized for running Casual.

Which creates a reward for pursuing the "challenge" of normal instead of going with casual. What's wrong with adding a reward for pursuing the challenge of elite?

[Impaqt]

[QUOTE=dkyle;3320769]There's no real distinction. Expected drops per run is what ultimately matters. The OP proposes a reasonable increase in expected runes per run as difficulty increases.

[quote]there is 0 chance 2 or 3 or 5 Eardwellers will drop. There is 0 chance one person will get 2 named items out of the end chest for Mindsunder.

If there weren't a hard limit, the chance would be infinitesimal small anyway. It's a loot table simplification that has little effect on expected drops per run.



Which creates a reward for pursuing the "challenge" of normal instead of going with casual. What's wrong with adding a reward for pursuing the challenge of elite?

there are already benefits that most of the games populate appreciates. Just because "Powergamers" dont find those bonus's exceptionally enticing doesnt mean the game should be changed to accommodate them.

[Mockduck]

I like the idea of incentivizing Elite runs in the Reaver's Refuge, kind of meh on the rune idea. I have seen folks running this for xp as well, maybe that could be the incentive to run on higher difficulties. Maybe add a few named items in that area on the chests.

[kernal42]

there is 0 chance 2 or 3 or 5 Eardwellers will drop.

Untrue - on Hard there's a 0% chance of getting 2 Eardwellers, on Elite there is a small but >0% chance (something like .1%?) of getting 2 Eardwellers. But that's nitpicking.

The question of "how much can you get in a given quest instance" is irrelevant compared to "how much can you get in a quest on average." Modifying the latter, but insisting the former remain constant, is pointless.

Also, there's really no difference between "penalizing for running on easier difficulty" and "rewarding for running on harder difficulty".

Cheers,
Kernal

[Kza]

You cant get some of the items on n from mindsunder. Therefore i am "forced" to play that on higher diff for them. If i had been able get em on n, i had played n cause thats faster. (even that i have it funnier on e!!!)

Many are like me, its boring playing too easy but... You are sick enough (i am atleast) i want as much xp and loot/time as possible. So as long it is little/no benefit play on higher difficulties i aint doing it, and get bored.

Its strange and sick but i think many humans work like me.

And this is risky for developers, as long i can get ubba xp running wiz king 12 times on n on all my TRs i do that and have it boring, instead of running quests that i can handle but will be harder (and funnier!) on e. For me i have to get loot/xp benefits for harder play, or i skip. And i am being bored instead.

I think this is a big thing for developers - how to make an exciting rewarding gameplay that ppl think is fun for vets and newbs alike?

(btw wizking are one of the funniest quests in game so it was a bad example but you know what i mean)

[dkyle]

there are already benefits that most of the games populate appreciates. Just because "Powergamers" dont find those bonus's exceptionally enticing doesnt mean the game should be changed to accommodate them.

For a capped character (i.e., most people running for their DT), the difference in reward between normal ETK and Elite ETK is absolutely negligible. We're talking a few hundred plat per run, ultimately. Whereas the increase in difficulty, and risk of failure, will be huge. People who don't have all the best gear already are exactly the type of people who should be rewarded most for taking that chance, and pushing themselves.

And I'm not exactly part of the wealthy elite in this game. I have one very well equipped character, most of the useful BtA stuff, and a few other nice unbound pieces gear, but I don't have stacks of +2 or even +1 tomes, or a ton of plat. And I don't see any good reason to farm runes on any difficulty higher than normal.

[kernal42]

there are already benefits that most of the games populate appreciates. Just because "Powergamers" dont find those bonus's exceptionally enticing doesnt mean the game should be changed to accommodate them.

In most quests, there are benefits to running harder difficulties that most of the game populate appreciates. For this reason, many quests can be seen run on hard/elite settings regularly. The Reaver's Refuge contents are not included in this set of quests. With no real reason to run these quests on hard/elite, they usually aren't. This isn't about powergamer/casual gamer.

Cheers,
Kernal

[mediocresurgeon]

The best reason to run Reaver's Refuge on Hard/Elite isn't for the runes. It's for the MASSIVE XP you get. Reaver's Refuge has 3 quests that take 15 minutes to complete, are easily zergable, and include optionals with large XP rewards. This makes the area extremely profitable for TRs at high level. My level 19 wizard has already run each of the 3 quests 13 times (1 on each difficulty, the rest on normal or hard). I give away my runes each run as an incentive for PUGs to join, since I don't need them.

Conclusion:
Not everyone runs the pre-SOS quests for runes, and those who run the quest for runes don't always get to pick the easiest difficulty.
I would rather spend dev time elsewhere.

[Impaqt]

Also, there's really no difference between "penalizing for running on easier difficulty" and "rewarding for running on harder difficulty".

Cheers,
Kernal

Of course there is. the "Norm" is indeed established. ormal, Hard and Elite award exactly the same reward and that is ONE rune or Pie Piece. when you Run on Casual, you do not have that guarantee. thats a Penalty. its a reduction in loot/rewards for choosing the "Easier" path.

[Impaqt]

In most quests, there are benefits to running harder difficulties that most of the game populate appreciates. For this reason, many quests can be seen run on hard/elite settings regularly. The Reaver's Refuge contents are not included in this set of quests. With no real reason to run these quests on hard/elite, they usually aren't. This isn't about powergamer/casual gamer.

Cheers,
Kernal

Totally disagree with this statement. for the vast majority of the game, the only real purpose of doing Hard and Elite difficulties is XP and Favor. there are but a Handful of quests that truely have a monetary or Item based benefit for running Hard and Elite difficulties.

Please provide some examples of "quests" (Not raids) where you feel there is a benefit to running Hard/ELite other than XP/Favor. SoS is NOT a raid. The only examples I can think of are Eye of the Titan and Mindsunder.

[rest]

I like the XP in RR. Especially during a TR life. Also, I'm a favor junkie. So all of these have been run by me on elite.

I wouldn't say they're more challenging on elite for a good group. My guildies and I knocked out Kobold on elite in 16 minutes. For the less awesome players, I guess it might be harder. Ever since I stopped pugging, I don't really pay attention to difficulty.

[Krag]

/signed
Always wanted to try out elite SoS.

[dkyle]

Please provide some examples of "quests" (Not raids) where you feel there is a benefit to running Hard/ELite other than XP/Favor. SoS is NOT a raid. The only examples I can think of are Eye of the Titan and Mindsunder.

The point is that Reaver's Refuge is essentially raid content. The important aspect of raids is not that allow 12-people (Tempest Spine is really just a 12-man quest, not a raid), but that the loot is vastly more important to most of the people running it than the XP/Favor. On normal quests, XP/Favor is enough. But for something that's people grind like a raid, to craft raid-quality loot, raid-like loot rules make sense. Mindsunder is another quest that is essentially a 6-man raid.

[Impaqt]

The point is that Reaver's Refuge is essentially raid content. The important aspect of raids is not that allow 12-people (Tempest Spine is really just a 12-man quest, not a raid), but that the loot is vastly more important to most of the people running it than the XP/Favor. On normal quests, XP/Favor is enough. But for something that's people grind like a raid, to craft raid-quality loot, raid-like loot rules make sense. Mindsunder is another quest that is essentially a 6-man raid.

its not a raid because you decide its "essentially raid content".

TS is indeed a raid.. well.. because its a 12 man instance that was designed to be a raid.

[Modinator0]

there used to be a really good reason to run on higher difficulty: loot. the larger problem that turbine needs to consider is, why should I open chests at all? there is so very little random loot worth having, I may as well just leave them closed and never consider difficulty in the equation.

I do wish more packs had decent static loot :\ you know, maybe some useful handwraps beyond shadow crypt?

[Aaxeyu]

/Signed

I don't see why more incentive to run quests on harder difficulities is bad thing. If it also means less grind it's 2 birds with one stone.

[kernal42]

The point is that Reaver's Refuge is essentially raid content. The important aspect of raids is not that allow 12-people (Tempest Spine is really just a 12-man quest, not a raid), but that the loot is vastly more important to most of the people running it than the XP/Favor. On normal quests, XP/Favor is enough. But for something that's people grind like a raid, to craft raid-quality loot, raid-like loot rules make sense. Mindsunder is another quest that is essentially a 6-man raid.

No.

its not a raid because you decide its "essentially raid content".

TS is indeed a raid.. well.. because its a 12 man instance that was designed to be a raid.

Yes.

For the vast majority of the game, the only real purpose of doing Hard and Elite difficulties is XP and Favor. there are but a Handful of quests that truely have a monetary or Item based benefit for running Hard and Elite difficulties.

Please provide some examples of "quests" (Not raids) where you feel there is a benefit to running Hard/ELite other than XP/Favor. SoS is NOT a raid. The only examples I can think of are Eye of the Titan and Mindsunder.

I absolutely agree that for a typical quest, the appeal of running it on a harder difficulty is to get more exp/favor. For the typical quest, the exp and favor are both important. For Reaver's Refuge, this is no longer true.

Characters who don't already have their Agents favor up enough by the end of Gianthold are likely to get Draconic Vitality after just running the RR quests on norm. For those farming favor to unlock FVS or some other milestone, there are typically a plethora of low-level quests that are faster and easier to get favor from. So, the favor is not significantly appealing.

For a first-life character, the exp granted from hard/elite completions is also largely unimportant. In my first-life experiences, once I hit level 16-17 the rest of the way was wholly completed by running quests which contained loot I wanted. The levelups occurred along the way, and I never once thought about running a particular quest for the exp - it was accumulating fast enough. For a TR'd character, I can imagine that this situation changes significantly. My own TR has only just hit 15, so I cannot comment yet there.

The above statements, of course, reflect only my own experiences. I'm under the impression that a majority of characters do not True Reincarnate, but I could be wrong here or in assuming that other players had experiences in leveling up similar to my own.

Cheers,
Kernal

[rest]

/signed
Always wanted to try out elite SoS.

So do it! There's nothing stopping you from doing it. If you truly want to just 'try out' elite SoS, that's all the motivation you should need. It's not really that bad honestly. Even the end fight with Sorjek isn't that much harder than a normal run.

[Impaqt]

No.



Yes.



I absolutely agree that for a typical quest, the appeal of running it on a harder difficulty is to get more exp/favor. For the typical quest, the exp and favor are both important. For Reaver's Refuge, this is no longer true.

Characters who don't already have their Agents favor up enough by the end of Gianthold are likely to get Draconic Vitality after just running the RR quests on norm. For those farming favor to unlock FVS or some other milestone, there are typically a plethora of low-level quests that are faster and easier to get favor from. So, the favor is not significantly appealing.

For a first-life character, the exp granted from hard/elite completions is also largely unimportant. In my first-life experiences, once I hit level 16-17 the rest of the way was wholly completed by running quests which contained loot I wanted. The levelups occurred along the way, and I never once thought about running a particular quest for the exp - it was accumulating fast enough. For a TR'd character, I can imagine that this situation changes significantly. My own TR has only just hit 15, so I cannot comment yet there.

The above statements, of course, reflect only my own experiences. I'm under the impression that a majority of characters do not True Reincarnate, but I could be wrong here or in assuming that other players had experiences in leveling up similar to my own.

Cheers,
Kernal

TR's and Especially Double TR's absolutely should grind XP in the RR. I just hit 16 last night on my latest and will be hiting those quests heavily over the next week or so.