Saving throw Vs Intimidate

[Aranticus]

I do not know if the OP ever DMed a PnP game before. A DM that makes the wise mobs go for the healers is a bad one. A successful DM is one which gives the players a good chance at succeeding but have it challenging. If every boss fight is made impossible by having the boss target the healers repetitively, the chance of success is going to be low. This is why monster manual also includes suggested monster strategies and tactics

[grodon9999]

If this comes down to healer discussion, I will say that if you need to drink 10 majors in a raid, either youre doing it wrong, or they are doing it wrong.

It's happened to me when things have gone horribly wrong and when we were learning the raids. When I'm running the raids and not on my healer I will give them SP-pots in case we get an "oh sh!t!" momment. It took my group of misfits maybe 10-15 ToDs before we stopped killing our healers. We did obscenely stupid stuff to like having a no-AC ****-healing-amp WF Monster with barely over 500 HP tank Horoth. You live and your learn. Now our typical normal ToD kill-sulu run gets done with no pots using intim on Horoth and hate on Sulu. We vary it up depending on the group make up but I'll always insist on a plan that isn't gonna require a zillion SP-pots. It's a cheap victory if you have to down SP pots.

With the way this game works, you'd have to change too much. The name of the game is aggro management, smarter AI with more dynamic quests would just be different. An above poster was correct in saying an 80 skill/ability score/AC is godlike so yeah it's about as believable as any of the other BS we accept here.

Turbine should kick it old school and give us another Titan or Hound where it's more thinking than tank-n-spank.

[grodon9999]

I do not know if the OP ever DMed a PnP game before. A DM that makes the wise mobs go for the healers is a bad one. A successful DM is one which gives the players a good chance at succeeding but have it challenging. If every boss fight is made impossible by having the boss target the healers repetitively, the chance of success is going to be low. This is why monster manual also includes suggested monster strategies and tactics

DMing is like playing checkers with my 6-year-old niece. I have to let her win but make her think she earned it.

And it really depends on the mobs, one of the best PnP nights ever was an assassination attempt on all the casters in a city (including the PCs) by some arch-villain prepping for an invasion.

[dkyle]

I do not know if the OP ever DMed a PnP game before. A DM that makes the wise mobs go for the healers is a bad one. A successful DM is one which gives the players a good chance at succeeding but have it challenging. If every boss fight is made impossible by having the boss target the healers repetitively, the chance of success is going to be low. This is why monster manual also includes suggested monster strategies and tactics

When I DM, I pretty much always go for the healer if I can. But, in the version of D&D I DM, the players have the tools necessary to actually protect their healer. If they play with proper tactics, they are able to provide reasons why a monster would be unwise to attack their healer. The combats are challenging, yet winnable, because the players can succeed by simply playing wisely, not because I need to completely tie my hands behind my back.

Unfortunately, it's hard to have that kind of tactical nuance in a real-time action game. Instead, the enemies obey certain predictable AI rules, and the players have the tools to manipulate that AI.

[bunitchu]

Yes, my point is having a mob with a genius (or so) level intellect try to beat on a guy whom

A) He can't hit
B) He can't damage (due to massive DR)
C) Keeps getting healed if he does manage to hurt him

is stupid.
By no means am I saying that there should be a blanket immunity, I'm just saying at some point he should go "maybe I need to change tactics, I will ignore this guy (girl/other) and go kill the healer that's keeping him up.There, now that I've hit that healer with 6 chain cast disintegrates and he's a pile of ash, maybe if I stomped that Arcane who's wailing on my troops they can help me deal with this clod who's the greatest danger to me"

here is how intimidate usually plays on D&D

1- u provoke the mob who will frenetically try to chew on ur butt
2- u scare the heck out of ur target

well, DDO tossed the numer 1 approach to it, suposedly when u intimidate a mob, its not a matter of him thinking "oh how amusing, he middle fingered me, how about i try to hit him a bit for that and see how it plays out", its more like "motha.... i will show u what i think of that middle finger" followed by "someday i will hit u, and when that day comes!!!!", and then finally "Oh, so my slap didnt hurt u?! No prob, i will slap untill it hurts". Try on pnp gettin to a mindsunder and saying "u cant mindcontrol meee...u cant mindcontrol meee!!" and u will see a very umpleased mob trying to make u scratch ur face on the ground.
besides, mobs here are willing to self immolate on firewalls as long as they can chew on the mage that is running through it, so why not try to kill the non firewalled tin man who showed them a nice middle finger? =3

[Khurse]

I do not know if the OP ever DMed a PnP game before. A DM that makes the wise mobs go for the healers is a bad one. A successful DM is one which gives the players a good chance at succeeding but have it challenging.

I'm not sure what you're saying, if the enemies attack the healers it's too challenging, but your players want a challenge? I have DM'd (Or GM'd more, haven't DM'd since 2nd Edition) and the healer class is always a potential target, sure the average highway bandit doesn't attack them, but the Evil Mage/ Genius level monster that they're fighting realizes that the healer is waht's keeping the party up, and will concentrate attacks to remove them.

But let's face it, MMO tactics are ********. I think that's what the OP is getting at. The mobs are obscenely stupid and the "tactics" in this game are all based on exploiting that stupidity. What "Devil General" is going to punch one nearly un-killable guy while 8 others stab him in the back?

This is indeed what I'm getting at, at some point the (reasonably) intelligent monster should realize what he's doing isn't working. And maybe some new tactics are required.
Thought I saw someone mention having bosses fire some random attacks at the group (odd I can't find it now) and that I think would work, I'm sure if there was a chance Horoth tossed out a couple disintegrates against random players in the group it might achieve what I'm looking for.

I admit that the proposal would hurt intim builds, but (honestly) I've never liked it. How come our characters can't be intimidated? Maybe that would be better, if the Orthons in Pt 3 could pull you off of Horoth or Sulo.. but that's probably a programming mess.

It just seems..boring the way it is now. Given no lag there's about a 0% chance for any competent group to fail ToD on normal, and it's supposed to be about the toughest raid in the game. (save perhaps Abbot, and if your group is good that one is easy as well).

Oh and I have a Healer btw (20 FvS), and I don't generally have to do anything in Tower other than throw out a few buffs, and mass heal, same thing I do in Shroud, same thing I do in VoD, Hound is a little more involved but not really, while I certainly appreciate everyone who has a Cleric or fvS, please don't make it out like you end up having to use Pots every raid, if you do, as mentioned, either you or the group you run with is doing something wrong.

Thanks for everyone opinions, and perhaps I stated it wrong (I don't really want to nerf Intim builds) but doesn't anyone think the the game is a little too easy? Don't want to sound like an elitist player (I'm not good enough unfortunately )I'd just like to see some (not all) of the Evil uber bosses actually do something intelligent for a change.

[Bilger]

This is a MMO where as Impaqt stated before Tanks have been a staple from day one.

If a person builds a character around a certain skill and uses it for what it is worth then so be it. I have atleast one of every class and a intim is one of them.

I built him on this game not pnp basis this game is not pnp like it or not.

I would never build intim like that in pnp but this is a mmo and not pnp get over that fact and you will be fine.

Intim is a game mechanic what is being suggested will go against it and be a major nerf to alot of builds.

Yes I agree the AI is stupid until that can be changed game mechanics such as these will be common and well used.

If don't like doing it that way then form your own group with no intims and go that way.

[krud]

I'll repeat:

Is a saving throw necessary when you already roll a d20 when you hit intimidate?

With most spells and such you have a static DC, which the mobs roll a d20 against. With intimidate, the d20 is rolled for your skill, which is checked against the mobs static score. It ends up working just like a saving throw except in reverse. The only difference is there is no auto fail, or auto succeed. Why would another d20 be needed?

[Spookyaction]

Improving the ai is good for the game. Taking away build options is not. If you dont like the way intim works dont use it. Quit trying to make the game less fun for the rest of us ok ?

[Aranticus]

the point i'm making is a human DM will make allowances for a fight in which the healers and casters are being targetted so that the party has a chance to beat the boss, abeit with some challenge. in a DDO scenario, this is can have devastating results. take part 4 shroud for example. if harry keeps dbfb and meteor the healers, it can result in a party wipe as there is little room for allowances

i remember a game where i was the DM. the party was fighting a green dragon who kept targetting the party cleric with spells and breath. it took a smart friend to discover that hitting the dragon's eggs is a good way to get her attention

[EricZanzibar]

Heres a crazy thought but how about an actual DM everynow and then takes control of the big monster. It would be a mega rare if anyone met him he he... but how awesome would that be. Would throw a REAL spanner in the works. he he.