Devs, Please! remove the 2x SP penalty from CE

[sephiroth1084]

I know the devs were real proud of themselves for finally making Combat Expertise manageable for all the light monks and AC builds who wanted to use clickies, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why they decided to tack on the double SP cost to the stance. The feat already has enough penalties!

1. Cannot use Power Attack - this is a big penalty, since DPS, as we all know, is the bread and butter of DDO, but is additionally relevant in this case since many characters with CE up want to have aggro, which can be difficult to do with the loss of 5-10 damage per swing.
2. Requires build points put into Int (3-5) - this is something of a hardship for AC toons, since they typically spread their stats a bit thin in the first place in order to juggle Str, Dex and Con (and Cha on a paladin).
3. A to-hit penalty of -5 - this may be insignificant for large portions of the game, but it is not completely negated while leveling (even on a tricked-out double TR, I encountered places where I was having trouble hitting during this current life) and is a real issue in epic content.
4. It costs a feat - and for many builds, this is a pretty hefty cost.

Who is the penalty aimed at? Are you concerned about some wizard running around at level 3 with an extra few points of AC? Paladins and Rangers are really the only characters likely to A) have spells and B) have enough AC to bother picking up CE at all, and even then it's only a fairly small subset of these characters that care enough about AC to pick up the feat.

Let's look at an example of how this actually affects a toon:

My paladin at level 17 has ~540 SP, 450 HP, and can, with a Superior Ardor IV pot and Maximize heal for ~215 w/ Cure Serious Wounds at a cost of 50 SP, 60 with Quicken on (1/10 my total SP). If I pick up Combat Expertise at 18, it will cost me 100-120 SP (1/5 my total SP) to heal half my health. How is that a justifiable penalty to tack onto something that already comes with penalties?

Zeal goes from 25 SP to 50, or 20 castings per rest to 10, ignoring things like resists and Divine Favor. The word 'egregious' was made for just these sorts of situations.

Devs, please reconsider this "fix" for CE!

[Aesop]

I never really liked this particular change either. I don't mind the casting while using CE but I never understood the additional cost...seemed unneeded

Aesop

[Beherit_Baphomar]

It's nothing more than an inconvienence for me. 90% of the time I forget to turn CE off before buffing. I'd much rather I had to turn CE on after every cast rather than what we have now.

[Natashaelle]

I agree -- the double SP cost is overkill.

[mournbladereigns]

I thought that increasing the casting time in CE stance would be an reasonable 'penalty' beyond the -5. Presumably this is to keep wizards and stuff from having a 'free' +5AC. Which would be reasonable if this was closer to PnP, but given the completely out of whack to-hit and ac's in game, its fairly useless for wizards, who can't get high enough AC to matter, and as you said, a pain to those most likely to use it.

[sirgog]

A flat +10sp per spell might work better.

[PopeJual]

I like the CE change. There needs to be some kind of penalty for non-melee classes or this would end up as a constant 5 AC increase for any spellcaster that can afford the feat. For characters that actually have AC, another 5 is an enormous increase.

I like it much more than the old way which meant you couldn't have CE on at all if you wanted to throw an occasional cure spell on yourself.

[Kintro]

There needs to be some kind of penalty for non-melee classes or this would end up as a constant 5 AC increase for any spellcaster that can afford the feat. For characters that actually have AC, another 5 is an enormous increase.

I think if a wizard wants to make the sacrifices to get a decent AC (offhand weapon, gear slots, points in dex, ASF) and spend a feat on CE to get an extra 5 ... let them. It might even add some build variety though I doubt many/any will take CE even without the penalty.

I really liked this change for my Monk but for my Ranger it's just a pain.

[Missing_Minds]

I never really liked this particular change either. I don't mind the casting while using CE but I never understood the additional cost...seemed unneeded

How many casters would shove up their AC more by taking CE? Lots.

However.... You could make a petition to say...

"Combat Casting" Allows you to cast while in defensive mode without penalty. Aka no additional spell point cost. It would give it a boost to the sorely lacking ability that it currently does.

[GhostNull]

The double cost of spell points after metamagics is what makes the change to CE painful.

Let's have an example of a Cleric casting Blade Barrier using Maximize, Extend and Quicken. This normally costs 80 spell points to cast:
(35 base + 25 Maximize + 10 Extend + 10 Quicken = 80)

Under the current system with Combat Expertise active, the doubling of spell points shoots this cost astronomically to 160 spell points!
(35 base + 25 Maximize + 10 Extend + 10 Quicken = 80 * 2 = 160) Yeouch!

That seems rather over-priced for a benefit of +5 AC and albeit a -5 to attack. If the Devs still want spells to cost more when using CE at least only double the base cost of the spell.

Using the same circumstances as above, the cost of casting Blade Barrier would be 115 spell points.
(35 base *2 = 70 + 25 Maximize + 10 Extend + 10 Quicken = 115)

Not too bad, still costs 35 more spell points to cast instead of a whopping 80 under the current system.

[Eladiun]

It's nothing more than an inconvienence for me. 90% of the time I forget to turn CE off before buffing. I'd much rather I had to turn CE on after every cast rather than what we have now.

This... I do the same thing then start swearing at the monitor. This change is terrible and needs to go.

[Eladiun]

How many casters would shove up their AC more by taking CE? Lots.

Really????? How many casters get above 60 AC to even make it meaningful? Take CE over something else that makes you a better caster...not a chance. Displace and Stoneskin are your AC. This is just an annoying burden on AC Paladin's and Rangers.

[EKKM]

I like the CE change. There needs to be some kind of penalty for non-melee classes or this would end up as a constant 5 AC increase for any spellcaster that can afford the feat. For characters that actually have AC, another 5 is an enormous increase.

I like it much more than the old way which meant you couldn't have CE on at all if you wanted to throw an occasional cure spell on yourself.

Its only an enormous increase up to level 7-8 and then it is irrelevent for 90% of casters. The prime candidate for abuse is monk splashed clerics/FVS who are the only classes that can manage a useful AC while casting. Even then they are putting 3-5 more points into INT than they otherwise would. There is a cost - points/tomes into INT and a feat on feat starved classes.

Just to be clear - I have none of those characters.

[Missing_Minds]

Really????? How many casters get above 60 AC to even make it meaningful? Take CE over something else that makes you a better caster...not a chance. Displace and Stoneskin are your AC. This is just an annoying burden on AC Paladin's and Rangers.

Yes, really. I didn't say "arcane" or "divine' did I? Any character that can cast spells is a caster.

So lots of paladins, rangers, bards, let alone monk splash clerics, or anyone in general who is willing to spend the effort into AC.

[Samiusbot]

Really????? How many casters get above 60 AC to even make it meaningful? Take CE over something else that makes you a better caster...not a chance. Displace and Stoneskin are your AC. This is just an annoying burden on AC Paladin's and Rangers.

Many of my Wizards have AC in the mid to high 60's and i almost never have room for CE. My one Wizard that does have the feat is a DR build and needed to take it for the first tear of the Defender PRE.

[Eladiun]

Yes, really. I didn't say "arcane" or "divine' did I? Any character that can cast spells is a caster.

So lots of paladins, rangers, bards, let alone monk splash clerics, or anyone in general who is willing to spend the effort into AC.

I'll give you monk splash clerics or FVS but no one ever refers to paly's or rangers as casters. Even on a monk splashed cleric or FVS, with the limited number of feats is this viable on anything but a solo build or specific melee builds when those feats can be spent elsewhere. 90% of the people in this game tank AC anyway because it is so broken so where are these 'lots' of people who are gonna blow a feat and the build points (Int, Dex, and Wis in many cases to get AC high enough...don't forget Str because you aren't hitting without it with the -5 penalty unless you blow another feat on Finesse) to get CE (for 5 points) if it had no penalty. The sacrifices and grind to even make AC remotely viable in this game makes extra penalties unnecessary. I have an Exploiter TR I know the joys of AC but honestly this penalty is a PITA.

Many of my Wizards have AC in the mid to high 60's and i almost never have room for CE. My one Wizard that does have the feat is a DR build and needed to take it for the first tear of the Defender PRE.

There's one...woot! Let's see how many more flavor builds we have out there.

[EKKM]

Many of my Wizards have AC in the mid to high 60's and i almost never have room for CE. My one Wizard that does have the feat is a DR build and needed to take it for the first tear of the Defender PRE.

But does that change the fact that CE costs a feat? I.e. there is a cost, you didn't take another toughness, mental toughness, meta, spell pen etc that a "normal" wizard would have.

The arguement isn't entirely "its not useful for full casters anyway" even though it isn't for MOST builds, its also that there is already a cost. For some reason the devs belive that defense should cost more than offense. For example, why don't spells cost x2 when power attack is on?

[Angelus_dead]

For example, why don't spells cost x2 when power attack is on?

Because Power Attack includes a -5 penalty on attack rolls as its downside. The benefit of +5 damage can only be obtained if you make attack rolls, meaning you suffer the penalty. It would be simply impossible for anyone to benefit from PA without rolling an attack.

Combat Expertise's also has a -5 penalty on attack rolls, but the benefit of Combat Expertise is not dependent on you making an attack. Someone could get use from the +5 AC without ever swinging a weapon, particularly if he fights by casting spells. That's why the devs had to look for another downside that's applicable to casters as well.

Of course, players have often suggested that the penalty be replaced with simply suppressing the CE benefit for 5 seconds whenever you cast.

[Natashaelle]

Really????? How many casters get above 60 AC to even make it meaningful? Take CE over something else that makes you a better caster...not a chance. Displace and Stoneskin are your AC. This is just an annoying burden on AC Paladin's and Rangers

...

... and AC Battle Clerics.

[Eladiun]

Of course, players have often suggested that the penalty be replaced with simply suppressing the CE benefit for 5 seconds whenever you cast.

This would be a perfectly acceptable penalty.