What makes a healer "uber"?

[Aranticus]

And I ask again, how does that factor in?

because if your cleric is really good, after L11 you do not need anyone else in the party

[Bacab]

I have started and deleted 4 or 5, and only gotten one to 9 not because of the healing aspect but because I don't like most of the spells (gimme something that has pretty lights!)

And I ask again, how does that factor in? I practice my healing abilities by intentionally joining bad PUGS and trying to see how long I can keep them alive, it's actually kind of exhilarating (sp.) and they are a lot more willing to listen to helpful constructive build criticism than they would be if the following ensued:

Me (FVS): Stand here for buffs
<newbie doesnt get there in time or gets caught in a mob and dies quicker than I deem acceptable>
Me: You suck newb, I'm not wasting heals on you, maybe you should look into boosting your CON, if you want a raise dead it will cost you 200 plat (I have seen this transpire, not often but have seen it)

as the newbie, what would be your first reaction to that? I am guessing not adulation and a thirst for learning from said healer.

I have a level 4 Monk...does that make me an expert?

I made a level 5 ROG...does that make me an expert?

[Llewndyn]

sure



i'll roll up a 6 con elf monk in windstance with no con, false life, minos, shroud elemental energy items and you need to heal me without whining



yes i'll ask you for every buff you got



no problem



that will greatly help since my elf monk will have 8 str



precisely! how dare you ask me for donations!

I mean for normal players not you! Quit injecting your insidious "logic" and "thought" into my flame thread dangit!

[Llewndyn]

I have a level 4 Monk...does that make me an expert?

I made a level 5 ROG...does that make me an expert?

But even if you had NO monk and NO rogue you would still have every right to complain (and I would join you wholeheartedly) if the rogue tried to solicit donations or felt he was entitles to Tharne's Goggles or decided since he got those traps in the Tor he deserves all black scales...

And if YOU are playing those characters....yes that makes you an expert. Please heal me if I ever PUG with you (it's a fine line between arguing my point and setting off potential future lifelines )

[Shuleagh]

The other night (not last night those guys were cool) I was in a shroud run and noticed the clerics were engaging in some, sadly more and more typical healer behavior: Not banging on portals, not really fighting all that much if at all, kinda talking about how uber they are and giving us the bidness about how much it is costing to keep us healed, telling us they will require donations for having to drink pots after the mission, just going about the whole thing with a misplaced sense of entitlement. This is not just something with the shroud, it's something that has become more and more prevalent throughout my storied career on this hallowed game.

At first I would meekly agree, since a lot of the time any argument led to me not getting healed, and there is a very thin line between a rogue leading the kill count because someone else has agro, and accidentally doing enough damage to get agro and not having a healer to back him up, and that line is a *ding* sound. I would quietly schlep along, standing where the cleric told me to, accepting the random berating of my character class and quietly accepting them barking orders at others, no one wishing to annoy them for fear that they will be ostracized from the gentle healing teets all healers possess (ugh, that conjured up some pictures I don't EVER wanna think about again), but I think it's time to put those crazy cats in their place. 95% of you healers are NOT uber players. UBER healers:

1. Can solo heal even non-optimal builds without whining
2. can go with the ebb and flow of battle and get buffs to who needs them (within reason, but making everyone stop what they are doing because you have decided "I shall now bestow my buffs on you wretched masses" is kinda lame)
3. Can contribute kill count
4. Are willing to get their hands dirty (portal bashing, trash mob pickup, etc.)
5. Realize the ALL classes expend resources and suck it up (Does the rogue ask for donations for thieves tools? Does the Caster ask for $$$ for spell components? Does the fighter ask for money to repair his items?)

I have played with uber healers before (one was a complete and total jerk about it but I give credit where credit is due) but not THAT many of them. If there are 3 healers in a raid and you wipe on the Chicken's first iteration, no that doesn't mean you suck but you are no longer to refer to yourself as UBER. If you have 2 healers in a raid 4 levels below you and run out of sp so often that the rogue and sorc have to break out wands to keep YOU alive and you still can't be bothered to fight, that doesn't mean you suck but you are not UBER.

WHat makes a healer uber for you?

The whole donations and trash talking cleric bit has to be server specific, I've almost never run across it on Cannith. You don't have to meekly agree or put up with that nonsense though. If a cleric says something stupid call em out on it. Chances are everyone else in the party is thinking the exact same thing. Get someone else.

[rophez2]

Clerics need to stop whinning about using pots, roll up a FvS if you don't like to use pots. I cant remember the last time i had to use a pot in a raid on my FvS.

[Aranticus]

Clerics need to stop whinning about using pots, roll up a FvS if you don't like to use pots. I cant remember the last time i had to use a pot in a raid on my FvS.

my cleric has never required any pots, scrolls yes, for epics or hard/elite tod. if you have to roll up a fvs just so you would not have pot usage, it really says alot about either the people you run with or your skills

ps: new players may not have the favor or money to roll up a fvs

[voodoogroves]

I made a level 5 ROG...does that make me an expert?

No, it means you don't have enough sense to play a toon with real HP and staying power ...

;-)

Had to be said ... HAD TO BE SAID ;-)

[Kindoki]

I just ask myself: are they sponge-worthy?

haha. I never even liked that show, but there are a few moments that always crack me up.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=288892985899

[Khanyth]

The whole donations and trash talking cleric bit has to be server specific, I've almost never run across it on Cannith. You don't have to meekly agree or put up with that nonsense though. If a cleric says something stupid call em out on it. Chances are everyone else in the party is thinking the exact same thing. Get someone else.

Ditto for Orien. I've actually had a cleric turn down the offer for major mana pots when he kept the group from failing a VoD run.

Thank goodness

[taurean430]

I have started and deleted 4 or 5, and only gotten one to 9 not because of the healing aspect but because I don't like most of the spells (gimme something that has pretty lights!)

And I ask again, how does that factor in? I practice my healing abilities by intentionally joining bad PUGS and trying to see how long I can keep them alive, it's actually kind of exhilarating (sp.) and they are a lot more willing to listen to helpful constructive build criticism than they would be if the following ensued:

Me (FVS): Stand here for buffs
<newbie doesnt get there in time or gets caught in a mob and dies quicker than I deem acceptable>
Me: You suck newb, I'm not wasting heals on you, maybe you should look into boosting your CON, if you want a raise dead it will cost you 200 plat (I have seen this transpire, not often but have seen it)

as the newbie, what would be your first reaction to that? I am guessing not adulation and a thirst for learning from said healer.

Practicing keeping people up who may or may not be running a non survivable build is cool. It helps you develop your timing a bit. Likely of when to throw a heal and how much of one. Nothing wrong with that, but the thing is that that is one aspect of a class with tons of ability. Sticking with that small aspect of it really cuts the class short.

The problem appears to be that you are armchair quaterbacking. I don't mean that as an insult btw. Until you play one to cap and include some in game raiding I'm of that opinion. I took a look at your cleric in your sig, and it appears to be all about fighting, and very little to do with healing. It's not hard to pull off a build like that if you already are practiced at being the backbone of the party. Unfortunately many people start off with these kinds of builds and become overwhelmed while running them. What you can do in a party in addition to the role you assume is determined not only by your build, but the abilities of those who you are playing with. If your party can't survive without non stop heals, that build isn't going to shine in content at it's level. It's like asking to be really frustrated.

The reason this factors in is due largely to your statements regarding divine classes as a whole being one sided demonstrating a significant lack of understanding of how those classes are played. I've heard many a frustrated rant over the mic and in party chat when I am out of mana and refuse to drink pots. That's cool too, but as a player I'm going to give you some pointers I am aware of on how to survive that content without having to do that and keep my plat. I've been known to drink pots if necessary. Yet necessary is subjective and not objective.

When you assume the role of being party healer there is much more to it than spamming heals. The best divines you will meet in this game are aware of at all times:

1. General group ability to survive.
2. Necessary buffs to mitigate heavy spike damage to players.
3. What's around that next corner, and can the party handle that? Or, do I need to steal aggro?
4. How stealing aggro and managing it increases party survivability, and reduces heavy mana usage.
5. What the opposition has for spells/dr/special attacks.
6. Who is priority to keep alive to complete following roughly 10 seconds of play.
7. A good counter strategy for the party to complete providing the party leads plan falls apart.
8. The health and mana situations of all party members.
9. What the general abilities are of all party members.
10. Anything I may have forgotten while having my first cup of joe for the day


To your last point I've been melee in a party with an overbearing personality in the party healer role. The real question is whether they are competent. That determines whether what they are saying deserves merit, or a temp ignore until quest completion. Me doing that is pretty rare though. I am much more likely to coordinate my actions in a way that makes things easier for them. Not surprisingly, the best melee I have run into to date on my divines have done the same thing.

I'm not overbearing however, but will offer suggestions politely while on my divines. If people intentionally ignore me, or become highly defensive over it that's fine too. If they don't take buffs, run off and get themselves killed, I laugh. If they blame me for it, I laugh into the mic.

I've not seen people playing divines treat other players with disrespect to the degree you are posting. I've seen it almost daily the other way around.

[mickey2toes]

You should run with Bacab before you judge him. If not you are speaking from ignorance. And well that's pretty obvious.

are you trying to get a flame war going?....Bacab and I have hashed this out and now your here trolling...get a life

[mickey2toes]

When I speak of doing whatever it takes, I am referring to the groups that know how to play, but may be in just a little over thier head. I am referring to the groups that are playing as a team, but may not be as survivable as other groups.

For the record, I have a capped Fvs and another at level 18. The capped one is primarily a healer, but fulfills other roles, (i.e. DPS, Kiting, etc.) The other is primarily DPS but fullfils other roles (i.e. healing). No group that I join is ever sorry that they have me. My groups fill up almost faster than I can post the LFM, and I haven't had a non-completion in a very long time.

Been in this game for over a year, brought a monk to lvl 18, a fvs to 20 and another fvs to 18. I am about to embark on the TR route, but love end game as a healer that I am unwilling to TR untill i have another who can take his place. I am a very good FVS on Orien who goes by the name of 'Kwik' if you care to check out a future UBER Healer then come play with me.

I have cut my losses on occasion, and I will in the future.

[Bacab]

are you trying to get a flame war going?....Bacab and I have hashed this out and now your here trolling...get a life

Nah, Lorz is a buddy of mine and one of the best players I have ever run with.

He does call it like he sees it.

As this thread has progressed it has become more and more clear that the OP really does not know much about playing a Divine class. The OP may be a solid player and all...but he does lack perspective from a Divine's POV.

I am sure your POV has changed from page one to now? You have seen a LOT of respected players post "ya gotta know when to let the gimps die/fail". Or a better example..."Ya gotta, know when to hold 'em...know when to fold 'em..."

This HAS been a great thread because we got some players here (the best players generally check out forums to become better) learning and becoming better.

I am sure ATLEAST 5 players on here have developed some confidence to say "I can't heal stupid...this raid is not gonna work". This is a good thing. Many people become overwhelmed by really bad parties and the cost to run with those parties. That is what causes people to get burned out on playing a Divine. This is why there is a "shortage" of good divines. The sad thing is...you can look through these forums and find a BUNCH of solid players saying "I never ever ever PUG my Cleric and here is why..."

One other thing M2T. A lotta people shoot off at the mouth first (not saying you) and then after reading/learning more they come to realize that they *may* have been wrong. I was definitely defensive in my retort, because I had to come back guns a blazing. I really did not want a new player thinking:"I will do whatever it takes to make a party win." As I said...they will not be playing that divine very long.

Now after reading this...go back and read LLewydyns reasoning/excuse for not playing his cleric past level *9*. Seems awfully familiar/prophetic to what I just re-hashed huh? He got "bored" with it due to stress and being told/blamed. He did not like the spells (level 9 lacks all the cool spells) but he could not even make it to level 11 due to *OTHERS* making it not fun for him.

Anyway, hope to see ya in game. If ya ever on Ghallanda; I'd love to quest withya.

Toons in the sig!

~Bacab

[mickey2toes]

Nah, Lorz is a buddy of mine and one of the best players I have ever run with.


I am sure your POV has changed from page one to now? You have seen a LOT of respected players post "ya gotta know when to let the gimps die/fail". Or a better example..."Ya gotta, know when to hold 'em...know when to fold 'em..."

Anyway, hope to see ya in game. If ya ever on Ghallanda; I'd love to quest withya.


~Bacab

/signed

I may just take ya up on the offer and visit Ghallanda...look for 'Kwik'

[taurean430]

When I speak of doing whatever it takes, I am referring to the groups that know how to play, but may be in just a little over thier head. I am referring to the groups that are playing as a team, but may not be as survivable as other groups.

For the record, I have a capped Fvs and another at level 18. The capped one is primarily a healer, but fulfills other roles, (i.e. DPS, Kiting, etc.) The other is primarily DPS but fullfils other roles (i.e. healing). No group that I join is ever sorry that they have me. My groups fill up almost faster than I can post the LFM, and I haven't had a non-completion in a very long time.

Been in this game for over a year, brought a monk to lvl 18, a fvs to 20 and another fvs to 18. I am about to embark on the TR route, but love end game as a healer that I am unwilling to TR untill i have another who can take his place. I am a very good FVS on Orien who goes by the name of 'Kwik' if you care to check out a future UBER Healer then come play with me.

I have cut my losses on occasion, and I will in the future.

Nah, you're good. We've been playing for roughly the same amount of time really. And there are much better divines out there than myself, and you could very likely be one of them.

I've not found any fault in what Bacab has to say. Generally, I breathe a little sigh of relief when he jumps into a thread like this one. Same is true for some of the other vet players. Mostly because I am not a vet, but I'm learning new things all the time. Put frankly I get worried when I see threads that portray divines in a bad light. Some of the decisions you have to make to get a completion are not overly popular from time to time.

We've got divines ranging across the board here in Khyber. Some of the best out there though you wouldn't know because they choose not to pug. That's the real tragedy imo. If there were more, we wouldn't have so many extremes I think.

[mickey2toes]

Nah, you're good. We've been playing for roughly the same amount of time really. And there are much better divines out there than myself, and you could very likely be one of them.

I've not found any fault in what Bacab has to say. Generally, I breathe a little sigh of relief when he jumps into a thread like this one. Same is true for some of the other vet players. Mostly because I am not a vet, but I'm learning new things all the time. Put frankly I get worried when I see threads that portray divines in a bad light. Some of the decisions you have to make to get a completion are not overly popular from time to time.

We've got divines ranging across the board here in Khyber. Some of the best out there though you wouldn't know because they choose not to pug. That's the real tragedy imo. If there were more, we wouldn't have so many extremes I think.

thank you

[Llewndyn]

Practicing keeping people up who may or may not be running a non survivable build is cool. It helps you develop your timing a bit. Likely of when to throw a heal and how much of one. Nothing wrong with that, but the thing is that that is one aspect of a class with tons of ability. Sticking with that small aspect of it really cuts the class short.

The problem appears to be that you are armchair quaterbacking. I don't mean that as an insult btw. Until you play one to cap and include some in game raiding I'm of that opinion. I took a look at your cleric in your sig, and it appears to be all about fighting, and very little to do with healing. It's not hard to pull off a build like that if you already are practiced at being the backbone of the party. Unfortunately many people start off with these kinds of builds and become overwhelmed while running them. What you can do in a party in addition to the role you assume is determined not only by your build, but the abilities of those who you are playing with. If your party can't survive without non stop heals, that build isn't going to shine in content at it's level. It's like asking to be really frustrated.

The reason this factors in is due largely to your statements regarding divine classes as a whole being one sided demonstrating a significant lack of understanding of how those classes are played. I've heard many a frustrated rant over the mic and in party chat when I am out of mana and refuse to drink pots. That's cool too, but as a player I'm going to give you some pointers I am aware of on how to survive that content without having to do that and keep my plat. I've been known to drink pots if necessary. Yet necessary is subjective and not objective.

When you assume the role of being party healer there is much more to it than spamming heals. The best divines you will meet in this game are aware of at all times:

1. General group ability to survive.
2. Necessary buffs to mitigate heavy spike damage to players.
3. What's around that next corner, and can the party handle that? Or, do I need to steal aggro?
4. How stealing aggro and managing it increases party survivability, and reduces heavy mana usage.
5. What the opposition has for spells/dr/special attacks.
6. Who is priority to keep alive to complete following roughly 10 seconds of play.
7. A good counter strategy for the party to complete providing the party leads plan falls apart.
8. The health and mana situations of all party members.
9. What the general abilities are of all party members.
10. Anything I may have forgotten while having my first cup of joe for the day


To your last point I've been melee in a party with an overbearing personality in the party healer role. The real question is whether they are competent. That determines whether what they are saying deserves merit, or a temp ignore until quest completion. Me doing that is pretty rare though. I am much more likely to coordinate my actions in a way that makes things easier for them. Not surprisingly, the best melee I have run into to date on my divines have done the same thing.

I'm not overbearing however, but will offer suggestions politely while on my divines. If people intentionally ignore me, or become highly defensive over it that's fine too. If they don't take buffs, run off and get themselves killed, I laugh. If they blame me for it, I laugh into the mic.

I've not seen people playing divines treat other players with disrespect to the degree you are posting. I've seen it almost daily the other way around.

This was well thought out and well written. I DO respectfully disagree on a point or two but have learned a thing or 9 as well. In most of the parties I have been in we have been....well, if not afraid, hesitant definitely... to annoy healers, much as the same with casters in dungeons with undead as a rogue (where sneak attack does not exist). You are right, I did make my FVS to be as self sufficient as possible, I thought his healing ability was right up there as well. I am more than open to an honest critique of what I did wrong, as I assumed from said build while he could help in melee he was more specced to heal. I will TOTALLY concede that I don't know all there is to know, or even in most cases enough to be a competent healer, and even though I was peeved with that healer who was AWESOME but a total jerk about it (solo healed shroud on my first EVER run, and I was not the only virgin there) I still friended her and would join a PUG with her any time, I just don't like the more and more common assumption that "I is healer, therefore thou shalt prostrate thyself before me at my whim, fools!" (Not sure why I pictured Charlton Heston in Ben Hur when I typed that)...

I am really interested which healer you looked at? THe clonk? Or the FVS? I respect the opinions of vets (which is why my clonk is not the 9 monk/ 11 cleric I was gonna make it, levelling up in both classes equally) and would like to know what I did wrong.

/dead horse beat-down!

[Llewndyn]

As this thread has progressed it has become more and more clear that the OP really does not know much about playing a Divine class. The OP may be a solid player and all...but he does lack perspective from a Divine's POV.

~Bacab

An insult to healers, clerics, FVS's or anyone for that matter, after rereading my OP I can see how it might look like that. I have learned a LOT reading my own thread here, and you are right I guess I DO lack perspective from a Divine's POV. I still don't see myself healing in the shroud and doing or saying what was done or said to me; but the major point that "sometimes ya gotta let go" has not been lost on me.

Thanks everyone, please check your mail for a free masterwork rapier tonight.

[gwenniez]

you are considered uber in your class when :

People talk about you like your some kind of legend in the server.

Don't brag about your accomplishments but just take the compliments and thank the person
for their kind words and move on.

Be kind and polite to all players including people who don't know certain quests and are willing
to explain the quests to people who never run it before.(I saw a lot of $)*#heads with just 1 tr or no tr
under there belt acting all elitist vs new players/adventurers, but i also saw people who tred there toon more then 6 times and be still nice and respectable to others.)

And by far the most important one don't consider yourself uber but let other pass that judgement
on you and be humble about it.

A lot of people have the standards of solo healing a shroud not using pots bla bla, but that's not
what uber is being about. Uber is being a good player without having to rely on epic/gs bragging
/clantag.

I saw a lot of uber/good players who only got the title adventurer and i saw a lot of horrible players with
legend and multiple tr under there belts. An elitist anti social snob can never be an uber/elitist player because he
lacks the empathy and morals a good/uber player must have.

If you need to point out others flaws and go off on people because they lost the 10% exp penalty for dieing,
then your just an ass who's probably compensating through a game wich he lacks in real life.