Melee Threat Reduction - Stacking/Order?

[jingseng]

I'm wondering how, if at all, melee threat/enmity/hate (your favorite term) reduction stacks... and in what order they apply.

Specifically, I'm looking at Tharnes' Set, Subtle Backstabbing enhancement line, and Treason.

Despite the name, Subtle Backstabbing 4 has the following descriptor:
"activate this ability to cause your melee attacks to generate 40% less hate, making enemies less likely to attack you."

it sounds as though it applies to all attacks, not just backstabbing/sneak/surprise attacks...

Compare, tharnes:
"...will generate 20% less threat in melee combat."

So does this also apply to ranged attacks in melee distance (for example, point blank shot feat)? Note also the lack of consistency in terminology for enmity/hate/threat/aggro/attention/whatever.

And finally, Treason:
"Treason: this weapon reduces the threat generated by melee damage to 80% of normal."

So, now it's stated in a different fashion - which makes it sound as though treason applies after subtle backstabbing/other threat reduction. It also sounds as if the treason effect applies to another weapon if dual wielding.

So, because of the lack in consistency, it sounds as if all three (or at least two) of these effects will stack... anyone have any experience on this? or any dev comments/clarification?

[sirgog]

It is *suspected*, but not known for certain, that threat multipliers stack multiplicatively.

Example (note that noone would ever have this combination of effects on one character):

Rogue Subtle Backstabbing 4 (-40%) - x0.6
WF Brute Fighting 4 (+25%) - x1.25
Incite 10% item - x1.1

Multiply 0.6 x 1.25 x 1.1 to get 0.825 times normal threat.

[Razcar]

The devs explain it in this "Ask the Devs" segment of DDOCast:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=192322

[jurzey]

For those of us without access to play the video, what was the outcome?

[Draccus]

A typical rogue setup is to have some Subtle Backstabber and an item for threat reduction. From what I remember in the Dev discussions, they all stack multiplicatively, not additively, regardless of description. I'm not sure if it applies to ranged or not. The key to figuring it out is to use the damage, not the reduction, when multiplying.

Dresek has 30% reduction from Subtle Backstabber, or 70% damage. He also has 20% from Tharne's Wrath, or 80% damage. So his total threat should be .7 * .8 = 56%. This means his total threat reduction is 44%.

As far as whether it works on ranged damage or not, I don't think it does. I don't recall reading about it but my experience tells me it doesn't. When soloing Weapon Shipment, I'll sometimes sit within sneak range and toss my Air-Air returning dagger at the Pit Fiend while the Titan beats on him. Just plinking away with 0 base damage and 80-100 SA damage is enough to pull aggro quickly of the titan.

[kamimitsu]

It is *suspected*, but not known for certain, that threat multipliers stack multiplicatively.

That was the case for a long time, but it's no longer "suspected". Brenna did some extensive testing and came to the conclusion that it was multiplicative, which was later confirmed by the devs (in the DDOcast linked by Razcar.) It was nice to get some transparency on the issue, as it affected gear choice pretty heavily for many rogues.

So does this also apply to ranged attacks in melee distance (for example, point blank shot feat)? Note also the lack of consistency in terminology for enmity/hate/threat/aggro/attention/whatever.

The enhancement Subtle Backstabbing states "melee attacks", so I think it's safe to take it at face value. Same for Tharne's. And since Treason is a melee weapon, I think threat reduction is limited to melee weapons. There is an threat reduction line for spells, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

[jingseng]

thank you everyone for the informative responses.

I wish they took more care in using consistent language =/ But there already typos in quests - and at least one instance where the DM and the text don't match up.

I didn't think it would work for ranged, but I was hopeful (my AA has tharne's)... but I know there is an abbot raid item that specifically reduces ranged threat/enmity, so that all stands to reason.

I guess then the only remaining question would be, "does it ALL stack" ? For example, if you dual wielded Treasons. I would suspect not, but because threat reduction does stack and has no stated "type"... meh =p

thanks everyone

[kamimitsu]

thank you everyone for the informative responses.

I wish they took more care in using consistent language =/ But there already typos in quests - and at least one instance where the DM and the text don't match up.

I didn't think it would work for ranged, but I was hopeful (my AA has tharne's)... but I know there is an abbot raid item that specifically reduces ranged threat/enmity, so that all stands to reason.

I guess then the only remaining question would be, "does it ALL stack" ? For example, if you dual wielded Treasons. I would suspect not, but because threat reduction does stack and has no stated "type"... meh =p

thanks everyone

According to the DDOcast it does ALL stack excluding the same item/source. So, dual Treasons won't stack with each other, but will stack with Subtle Backstabbing, Tharne's etc..

[jurzey]

So in theory, subtle backstabbing, treason, tharnes, and the assassin set all stack.

I could drop a deuce on top of the mob's mom and not get aggro!

Sign me up.

[Razcar]

So in theory, subtle backstabbing, treason, tharnes, and the assassin set all stack.

I could drop a deuce on top of the mob's mom and not get aggro!

Sign me up.

If they add enough threat-reducing sources you might reach lower than -100% threat. If so the mob will maybe view your backstabbing as a pleasant massage and tip you before it dies...

[karl_k0ch]

If they add enough threat-reducing sources you might reach lower than -100% threat. If so the mob will maybe view your backstabbing as a pleasant massage and tip you before it dies...

If I understand correctly, via the multiplication, you can never reach more than 100% threat reduction.

Since you multiply the damage percentages (100% - threat reduction), you always get a positive number as a final damage percentage - unless you have a single item with 100% threat reduction. E.g., even 3 sources with 80% threat reduction (20% of damage) will end up with 0.2*0.2*0.2 = 0.008 = 0.8% damage, i.e. only 99.2% damage reduction. And even if there is some integer rounding involved in the aggro, 125 points of damage will still count as one point of damage.

Edit: Aww. Sorry, Razcar.

[jurzey]

If i did the math right with the SB, Tharnes, assasin set and treason. It will work out to 98.8% damage reduction.

That is spectacular.

[karl_k0ch]

I looked up the numbers in the wiki and compendium, so there might be some errors, still I think jurzey made a minor mistake somewhere.

Treason is 80% less threat, so 20% = 0.2 damage
Assassin Set is 20% less threat, so 80% = 0.8 damage
Tharnes is 20% less threat, so 80% = 0.8 damage.
Rog SB IV is 40% less threat, so 60% = 0.6 damage

0.2*0.8*0.8*0.6 = 0.0768 = 7.68% damage, i.e. 92.32% less threat. It looks like a similar value as the 'original' 80% from Treason, but if you look that way: Instead of 20% of the damage, now less than 10% of the damage is taken into account for threat generation.

Now a nice breakdown what is changed if you don't take the full SB line.
Tharnes, Assasin, Treason, SB I: -88.48% threat; 11.52% damage
Tharnes, Assasin, Treason, SB II: -89.76% threat; 10.24% damage
Tharnes, Assasin, Treason, SB III: -91.04% threat; 8.96% damage
Tharnes, Assasin, Treason, SB IV: -92.32% threat; 7.68 % damage

It is debatable if with this item setup SB II to IV is really worth the Action Points.

Edit: These numbers are wrong. I just realized it while reading another thread about threat reduction. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out, noctus.

[AylinIsAwesome]

If i did the math right with the SB, Tharnes, assasin set and treason. It will work out to 98.8% damage reduction.

That is spectacular.

That is just hilarious.

My Rogue will have new life!

[Razcar]

If I understand correctly, via the multiplication, you can never reach more than 100% threat reduction.

Yes of course, it was just a joke.

[Noctus]

Treason is 80% less threat, so 20% = 0.2 damage

Nope.

It sets you at 80%, not by 80%. --> SO its actually another 20%er threat reduction source.

[Qezuzu]

Assassin Set
SB 40%
Epic Venom Set
Treason
Tharne's

.8*.6*.8*.8*.8

For 24.576% of original threat, or a 75.454% reduction in hate.

nfc where you guys are getting >90% reduction.

I would drop Treason and Assassin set for something better. That is 38.4% of original hate, so unless all the other melees in your party are horribly gimped the extra 14% reduction isn't a match for using the Ravager Set or another Greensteel Weapon.

If you're TRed like me and have the +10 damage feat I would get the full SB line.