WF vs. Halforc vs. Dwarf: Best Tank?

[Boromirs]

And thus balance has been achieved!

WF have an insane stackable DR granting perk to their docents, and fleshies have the marilith chain to boost their offense. Therefore, a fleshy such as a Horc does more damage, and WF absorb more damage.

I think its reasonable

WF DR is not any higher then fleshie DR, in fact I think its worse. Fleshies just use armor, for instance, that marilith chain gives you 5 DR which automatically puts you on par with WF and it's FREE for YOU too. (WF need to spend a 1 feat and 3 enhancements to get that DR).

And why would a tank need to worry about DPS? He just sits there and takes a beating, I would think chugging pots is a perk, would rather have to carry around a few dozen uncurse pots then worry about my 50% divine healing failure.

[Cetus]

WF DR is not any higher then fleshie DR, in fact I think its worse. Fleshies just use armor, for instance, that marilith chain gives you 5 DR which automatically puts you on par with WF and it's FREE for YOU too. (WF need to spend a 1 feat and 3 enhancements to get that DR).

And why would a tank need to worry about DPS? He just sits there and takes a beating, I would think chugging pots is a perk, would rather have to carry around a few dozen uncurse pots then worry about my 50% divine healing failure.

lol

The post was about which race makes for a better tank, not what is the best way to play one.

The usual warchanter in your party already gives everyone 5 dr for free. But a WF can achieve a greater DR than a fleshy due to the gear availability- have you ever had a DoD on a WF character in a tanking position?

I'm not sure what groups you are familiar with, but a "tank" is far more than a shield blocking intimi spammer. A WF fighter for instance, with all of his tanking perks, doesnt exactly just shield up and hit the intimi button all the time. They still dish out great DPS, and it'll be greater than the one who needs to worry about curses. Thats my point.

If you maximize your damage output and go Frenzy III or Kensai III with all the damage gear in the world, you will still be a *better* tank than a halforc due to these reasons. The dps might actually even equal out due to the swing loss for chugging curse pots. Whether you think these perks are important or not is irrelevant, because its demonstrated on a daily basis the effectiveness of being WF in a main tanking role.

Am I a warforged on my main? No. Have I tanked horoth on my human? Haven't missed a tod run without being in that position. Do I think WF make for *better* tanks, undoubtedly.



theres really not much else to say here Bor, its pretty cut and dry where the races stand as far as this situation is concerned.

[Boromirs]

lol

The post was about which race makes for a better tank, not what is the best way to play one.

The usual warchanter in your party already gives everyone 5 dr for free. But a WF can achieve a greater DR than a fleshy due to the gear availability- have you ever had a DoD on a WF character in a tanking position?

I'm not sure what groups you are familiar with, but a "tank" is far more than a shield blocking intimi spammer. A WF fighter for instance, with all of his tanking perks, doesnt exactly just shield up and hit the intimi button all the time. They still dish out great DPS, and it'll be greater than the one who needs to worry about curses. Thats my point.

If you maximize your damage output and go Frenzy III or Kensai III with all the damage gear in the world, you will still be a *better* tank than a halforc due to these reasons. The dps might actually even equal out due to the swing loss for chugging curse pots. Whether you think these perks are important or not is irrelevant, because its demonstrated on a daily basis the effectiveness of being WF in a main tanking role.

Am I a warforged on my main? No. Have I tanked horoth on my human? Haven't missed a tod run without being in that position. Do I think WF make for *better* tanks, undoubtedly.



theres really not much else to say here Bor, its pretty cut and dry where the races stand as far as this situation is concerned.

So really, out all that you pull 1 benefit which an item that gives an advantage to tanking ...the DoD with it's "is it gonna proc?" DR gimmick. Yes, it does proc maybe 10~15% of the time Im standing there, do I really need it? Not really, I still have crazy high DR shield blocking.

And no, you are supposed to be shield blocking most of the time and not swinging anything. UNLESS you are hate tanking or regrabbing aggro. Does that count for DPS?...ehh no. Uncursing takes 1 second to do which would be followed up by a heal. NEITHER of these things detract from your DPS since the healer usually takes care of both for the tanker (perhaps if you're dps or support you gotta bring your pots).

[Merlocke]

do I really need it? Not really, I still have crazy high DR shield blocking.

....shield blocking?

And no, you are supposed to be shield blocking most of the time and not swinging anything. UNLESS you are hate tanking or regrabbing aggro. Does that count for DPS?...ehh no. Uncursing takes 1 second to do which would be followed up by a heal. NEITHER of these things detract from your DPS since the healer usually takes care of both for the tanker (perhaps if you're dps or support you gotta bring your pots).

I dont know how you play, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

When I think of someone being a tank, I think of a raged up melee standing there DPSing nonstop. You seem to think of a HP blob type character that stands there shieldblocking & spamming intim all day and occasionaly drinking remove curse pots.

(But if thats what your thinking about then a WF could just stand there with a DOD while clicking Titanic docent clickies while being Recon'd.)

If your not going to use the Horc's superior STR to DPS the mob whats the point of including them in this lineup?

[uhgungawa]

Halfling Hate Tank?

[Kasen_Darksword]

Anyone saying that warforged are better dps because others get cursed are wrong. 90% of people playing a WF want an easy button so they dont have to remove a curse or get level drained.
You dont want to know how many WF I have seen running around blinded asking for help... They all have such a high handicap because they think their immune to everything they have no way
of removing the blindness and or dont craft anything to prevent it. Most WF dont want to admit they will have less dps than a half-orc but sooner or later they will reincarnate to one.

[Boromirs]

....shield blocking?



I dont know how you play, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

When I think of someone being a tank, I think of a raged up melee standing there DPSing nonstop. You seem to think of a HP blob type character that stands there shieldblocking & spamming intim all day and occasionaly drinking remove curse pots.

(But if thats what your thinking about then a WF could just stand there with a DOD while clicking Titanic docent clickies while being Recon'd.)

If your not going to use the Horc's superior STR to DPS the mob whats the point of including them in this lineup?

Indeed my point EXACTLY. I'm doing the shield blocking thing, because thats the only spot the WF/dwarf has been backed into. If you compare hate tanking, OBVIOUSLY the horc will win. Thus, my thinking is if you add Hate Tank+Intimi Tank = Horc win 4 evars!

[Cetus]

....shield blocking?



I dont know how you play, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

When I think of someone being a tank, I think of a raged up melee standing there DPSing nonstop. You seem to think of a HP blob type character that stands there shieldblocking & spamming intim all day and occasionaly drinking remove curse pots.

(But if thats what your thinking about then a WF could just stand there with a DOD while clicking Titanic docent clickies while being Recon'd.)

If your not going to use the Horc's superior STR to DPS the mob whats the point of including them in this lineup?

lol, +1 bud

[Boromirs]

lol, +1 bud

Right, so it is agreed. Halforcs do make the best tanks, Hate/Intimi or otherwise.

Not a massive advantage, but an advantage nonetheless.

This is still ok, as WF still can be good arcanes and dwarves can be good clerics.

[Cetus]

Right, so it is agreed. Halforcs do make the best tanks, Hate/Intimi or otherwise.

Not a massive advantage, but an advantage nonetheless.

This is still ok, as WF still can be good arcanes and dwarves can be good clerics.

I think I'm going to go back to leveling, I agree with merlocke, but hardly with you.

[Boromirs]

I think I'm going to go back to leveling, I agree with merlocke, but hardly with you.

If you agree with Merlocke you ARE agreeing with me. Read what he said more carefully...

[Merlocke]

Horc does more damage, and WF absorb more damage.

What I agree with, is this.

[pjstechie]

I'm a strong supporter of the idea that there is no "best" race for a tank. And I extend that to best anything. There are of course "better" options and there are a variety of situations to consider.

My main barb is wf. Here are some things I have noticed and some reasons he will never become a halforc.

Wf immunities are convenient. I don't have to think about covering them gear wise

Wf get an extra 25% fort that stacks. Devs have indicated that they want to explore ways to reduce fortification, the new bard song is one example and they have mentioned revamping sunder to do this. There are also new abilities for rogues and existing/modified/new abilities for monks which reduce fort. Some mobs already have sunder and I'm sure as things progress we will see mobs able to reduce your fortification.

Wf can be healed by arcanes. Let's just ignore the whole curse thing for a moment. The ability to turn (a willing and competent) arcane caster into a healer is a nice option for a party. Generally speaking, in the parties I have been in, ToD groups usually have 1-2 arcanes and 2 healers and often a bard. In the last fight with horoth if you don't have a wf you only have 2 primary healers with a variable bard healing maybe depending on the bard. IMHO that's spreading heals pretty thin for most groups, particularly pick up groups. Now if you have a wf you add 1-2 more healers into the mix and suddenly things become far less stressful and resource intensive.

Now I realize that such situations are generally few and the tod example can be done many different ways. But as a guy who both plays a wf and an arcane (that repairs wf) I very much enjoy the added versatility that wf bring to a party.

[FluffyCalico]

Curious what each of the races brings to the table and which of them ultimately trumps out on being the best tank. I may make a Halforc Intimi/hate tank belive it or not, just wondering if Dwarf or even WF would be better at this though, what do each have to offer? Your thoughts?

We all know how you feel from the other 50 threads just like this you have made with a different heading. Please stop reposting a new half orc is over powered thread every single day.

[AyumiAmakusa]

WF for reasons listed above and because they're too sexy to resist for enemies to resist.

[Boromirs]

Well, actually I've kinda reconciled my differences of being a halforc by TRing into one. So, really this thread is trying to garner support for a halforc tank, not that halforc are overpowered (they are to some extent but they are not gamebreakingly so).

I've done the numbers out and it has come to this.

+2/+4 to-hit/to-damage VS. WF immunities/Arcane healing/80 some odd HP.

Which would YOU choose?

[gyerv59]

The kind of tanking your talking about op, intim, from the 3 races you threw out there.

Dwarf, with the armor bonuses u don't have to worry to much about pots turtled up, cuz nothing is hitting you.

[Boromirs]

The kind of tanking your talking about op, intim, from the 3 races you threw out there.

Dwarf, with the armor bonuses u don't have to worry to much about pots turtled up, cuz nothing is hitting you.

Even on epics? ... Also Im talking about ALL tanking, which would be Hate + Intimi + ???. So the two most known and popular ones,would require a balance of defense and offense. The not too hot and not too cold way of tanking. Again, it comes down to this...which is worth more?

[+2/+4 to-hit/to-damage] OR [WF immunities/arcane healing/ 80 some HP ..(do horcs get racial toughness enhancements?)]

[Merlocke]

I've done the numbers out and it has come to this.

+2/+4 to-hit/to-damage VS. WF immunities/Arcane healing/80 some odd HP.

You forgot the DOD

[khaldan]

Even on epics? ... Also Im talking about ALL tanking, which would be Hate + Intimi + ???. So the two most known and popular ones,would require a balance of defense and offense. The not too hot and not too cold way of tanking. Again, it comes down to this...which is worth more?

[+2/+4 to-hit/to-damage] OR [WF immunities/arcane healing/ 80 some HP ..(do horcs get racial toughness enhancements?)]

Horcs get to racial toughness II, like halflings, elves, and drow.

It's also +4 to hit/+6 to damage compared to WF, due to the extra str.

So +4 to hit/+6 damage/free tactics and fleshie armor OR immunities, arcane healing, docents, and 60 hp(WF con 2, racial 4, base +2 con).

Like I said earlier, I'd still go WF for hate or intimitanking, the arcane healing is just that useful.