Devs: Will we ever fight the Grand Dukes of Hell?

[Primalhowl]

I could give you half a dozen changes that were made by 4th ed that crapped up the Eberron setting.

The wierd yanking around of the cosmos is just one.

Another is the retconn forcing Dragonborne down everyone's throat... when in the previous edition, anything remotely like half-dragon (aka dragonborne) would have been hunted down as an abomination by the dragons of Argonnessen.

Basically, Eberron was originally interesting because it was SOOO different from the other established worlds in 3rd ed. When 4th ed was released, WOTC made a serious effort to make it all mesh together and be one big disgusting pudding.

[TiranBlade]

I can understand that to some degree, but in fairness, that's probably the single biggest change they made to Eberron's setting in 4e. Unlike the Realms, everything else was pretty much left as-is.

For those who are interested, here's what the 4e cosmology of Eberron is supposed to look like:

Yeah, I just got a look at that and borrowed a copy of a friends 4e ECG. They not only added the abyss and nine hells to eberron, but they also added Lolth and Tiamat into the depths of the Abyss....

This is insane....it really changes up the structure of Eberron as a whole.

[dejafu]

I could give you half a dozen changes that were made by 4th ed that crapped up the Eberron setting.

The wierd yanking around of the cosmos is just one.

Another is the retconn forcing Dragonborne down everyone's throat... when in the previous edition, anything remotely like half-dragon (aka dragonborne) would have been hunted down as an abomination by the dragons of Argonnessen.

Basically, Eberron was originally interesting because it was SOOO different from the other established worlds in 3rd ed. When 4th ed was released, WOTC made a serious effort to make it all mesh together and be one big disgusting pudding.

Sorry, I should always remember that what counts as "insignificant changes" for one person can completely ruin the experience for someone else. Just look at Protestantism

Seriously, though, Keith Baker (the creator of Eberron) talked about how the dragonborn were actually an easy fit: just stick them near the lizardfolk, and say that most non-monstrous races just had a hard time telling them apart. If you look closely at both books, very little attention is given to the dragonborn beyond this mention and some discussion of Argonnessen.

The reason they're not killed on sight by the dragons is... because it's ridiculous. Eberron was advertised from the beginning as an "if it exists in D&D, you can play it" kitchen sink setting. Stating that just because a player has a real itch to play a dragonborn, they're automatically hunted by the most powerful force in the setting is... nah, gonna have to say that was a good change

[dejafu]

Yeah, I just got a look at that and borrowed a copy of a friends 4e ECG. They not only added the abyss and nine hells to eberron, but they also added Lolth and Tiamat into the depths of the Abyss....

This is insane....it really changes up the structure of Eberron as a whole.

Tiamat was established in 3rd edition as an actual being (a Rajah/Overlord from the Age of Demons) who was bound in Khyber by the dragons near the end of the war. The Abyss is now simply the deepest part of Khyber... no radical change there.

The only mention of Lolth in the entire 4e Eberron campaign guide is a sidebar for DMs interested in incorporating more traditional drow into Eberron without radically changing the setting ( ). It's recommended that they be treated as an offshoot of the Vulkoor-following drow who chose to worship another bound Rajah by the name of Lolth. Not a goddess, just a very powerful demon. And one that's just listed as a brainstorming idea, not part of the established setting.

[TiranBlade]

Sorry, I should always remember that what counts as "insignificant changes" for one person can completely ruin the experience for someone else. Just look at Protestantism

Seriously, though, Keith Baker (the creator of Eberron) talked about how the dragonborn were actually an easy fit: just stick them near the lizardfolk, and say that most non-monstrous races just had a hard time telling them apart. If you look closely at both books, very little attention is given to the dragonborn beyond this mention and some discussion of Argonnessen.

The reason they're not killed on sight by the dragons is... because it's ridiculous. Eberron was advertised from the beginning as a "if it exists in D&D, you can play it" kitchen sink setting. Stating that just because a player has a real itch to play a dragonborn, they're automatically hunted by the most powerful force in the setting... nah, gonna have to say that was a good change

Well this is true, the eberron world should be organic enought to accompany everything like it was intended, it just changes the known cosmology in the Eberron Novels even to include 2 more planes that didn't exist before. It's just odd, but then again, sometimes new discoveries of planets happen in our world. It just doesn't fit the old Baker's Dozen thoery anymore and makes me wonder if any new moons showed up in Eberron to compensate for Baator appearing.

I'm not appauld by it anymore, it just how is everything else in the setting handled?

[dejafu]

I understand, there's a lot that at first glance looks like is lost by this, but it's clear that they did keep these kind of objections in mind.

The Baker's dozen, for example, is maintained in a couple of ways: Xoriat is no longer considered a part of Eberron's "natural" cosmology, but is instead an unnatural invader - which makes the whole idea of the plane being the embodiment of corruption all the more compelling, since the plane itself is an aberration! So swap Xoriat's moon for Baator.

Second, as I mentioned earlier, the Abyss isn't considered a separate plane so much as the very deepest parts of Khyber. No need for its own moon there.

...

Sorry, we were talking about fighting the Archdukes, right?

Yes please! Though it's probably best to fit them into Shavarath rather than incorporating the Nine Hells. If this discussion is any indication, the devs should probably sidestep that particular controversy - DDO isn't exactly known for being a place that's friendly to 4th edition D&D.

I hate how much edition wars create bad blood towards interesting ideas

[Primalhowl]

You are correct. We were heading down a rather OT track there... so I will restrain my responses.

Sorry, we were talking about fighting the Archdukes, right?

Yes please! Though it's probably best to fit them into Shavarath rather than incorporating the Nine Hells. If this discussion is any indication, the devs should probably sidestep that particular controversy - DDO isn't exactly known for being a place that's friendly to 4th edition D&D.

I hate how much edition wars create bad blood towards interesting ideas

Again I ask... WHY take things from other settings when there is such an enormous amount of untouched source material WITHIN the Eberron setting?

If we had already exhausted the big bad villans in the Eberron setting, I'd be behind you entirely... but the fact of the matter is we haven't. And I'd much rather go up against an awesome looking Daelkyr abberation than an overdone monster type in the form of an Archduke.

[Deaths_ward]

I understand, there's a lot that at first glance looks like is lost by this, but it's clear that they did keep these kind of objections in mind.

The Baker's dozen, for example, is maintained in a couple of ways: Xoriat is no longer considered a part of Eberron's "natural" cosmology, but is instead an unnatural invader - which makes the whole idea of the plane being the embodiment of corruption all the more compelling, since the plane itself is an aberration! So swap Xoriat's moon for Baator.

Second, as I mentioned earlier, the Abyss isn't considered a separate plane so much as the very deepest parts of Khyber. No need for its own moon there.

...

Sorry, we were talking about fighting the Archdukes, right?

Yes please! Though it's probably best to fit them into Shavarath rather than incorporating the Nine Hells. If this discussion is any indication, the devs should probably sidestep that particular controversy - DDO isn't exactly known for being a place that's friendly to 4th edition D&D.

I hate how much edition wars create bad blood towards interesting ideas

Eh, but without edition wars I couldn't say something Like "While 4th edition D&D makes a **** poor D&D game, it still actually is a fun hack'm up with your friends." and watch the nerds tear each other to pieces over it.

That aside, I have believed that 'Uberron' (the most broken campaign setting ever) has some good ideas, and some absolutely foul ones (I personally want to stab Kieth Baker in the eye with a rusty spork for the Warforged). Though it does make for an interesting setting for DDO because there is less established source material for it than there are for places like the Forgotten Realms, Darksun, or Birthright settings, so there's more creative license with characters and places, without people getting all up in arms about their favorite characters being misquoted, and that creatives freedom can allow for things that are entirely non-cannon as it were, meaning we very well could end up going toe to toe with Asmodeus.

[Boromirs]

Lets delve into what potentially a REAL Paragon level boss might look like in terms of stats/abilities/type/and overall placement.

I'll start with one...


[Princess Glaysa, Countess of the 6th circle of Hell and Ruler of All Malbogia]



Str:50
Dex:39
Wis:25
Int:70
Con:38
Cha:99
◦CR: 48/55/60 on Normal/Hard/Elite
◦Lawful Evil Devil(Lawful Evil Outsider)
◦HP:
◦500,000(+100,000 w/ability)/600,000(+200000 w/ability)/700,000(+300000 w/ability) - part 4, normal/hard/elite
◦AC: 59/68/75 (Normal/Hard/Elite)
◦125% Fortification on Normal, Hard, and Elite
◦DR: 25/Silver+Good, this increases on Hard/Elite setting (Hard 40, Elite 55).
◦Immunity to fire, poison,acid,lightning,Symbol of Weakness,ranged weapons do half.
◦Evasion
◦SR 46/58/65 depending on difficulty
Spell Abilities:

Comet Fall - 700-900 pts of damage (raw).
Finger of Death - (death ward only gives bonus to save).
Vertigo - Falls over prone for 20 seconds (save versus enchantment).

Special Abilities (at will) :

Seduce/Charm Man (player) - This ability allows Glaysa to turn a player character to her side for 30 seconds and attack with his most potent damaging spell the nearest player character/or melee that person (if he belongs to a melee class). Save vs. will to nullify. Only affects male characters.

Mirror Image - Glaysa can at will multiply herself into 10 different forms. Each false image will "break" after 10000 hit point loss.

Asmodeus' Curse - A player cleric/healer would be imbued with this curse (if secretly failing a save) which would at a random point in time reveal itself and make a heal spell have the exact opposite effect (whatever is healed will damage the characters "healed").

Suck you dry - If a player character (typically melee) falls prey to this ability an animation of Glaysa giving the poor adventurer a passionate kiss appears. Wherein 70~120% of the player character's hitpoints will be sucked away and given to her. The total amount (cap) that can be stolen during the fight is listed above.

------------


What is your idea for a great end boss? Reply here.

[Dabima]

I'm guessing there will be more to Shavarath in the future. Either an Archon or Demon territory. There is a bridge on the east side of the battlefield, along the cliff near the Hall of the Third Legion, that leads to another large area of Shavarath but there is a gate blocking it.

[PCSwarrior]

I vote for some new epic devil fights, and even better if they were in the 9 hells.

I'm not too familiar with Eberron lore, but if it is atleast a little like AD&D, I think a neat thing to do would be to incorporate St. Cuthbert in the storyline of these devils, you know, he's gotta send in some angels to help the fleshies (and WF) get the job done...

And, as a small off-topic: Where is Primus???? Back in PnP, he was my favorite dude! I mean, I wanna go to Nirvana, go beat the blocks off some Quadrones, Hextons, and maybe even some Tertians, then go and bargain with The One and the Prime. Then I want to come home, only to realize that Suulo killed Primus, and now a Secundus is after me to add on to his kill count.....

Too bad that none of that stuff is in Eberron (at least I don't think it is)

[Odin's_Hugin]

I'm guessing there will be more to Shavarath in the future. Either an Archon or Demon territory. There is a bridge on the east side of the battlefield, along the cliff near the Hall of the Third Legion, that leads to another large area of Shavarath but there is a gate blocking it.

I have also noted this. Remember that there was a similar gate at Cerulean Hills, and it became a quest entrance. So, Im sure they didnt put it there for looks.

[Boromirs]

Shavarath is probably one of the more ambient, atmospheric places in the game. I would however, love to travel into Asmodeus' castle in the 9th circle of hell where our objective is to steal an object of power from one of his chambers and bring it back to the Yugoloths or the twelve all in one piece.(a multi-chapter quest with a storyline revolving around that object). I would also like to see less bam bam fight fight smash and grab quests, hence why the extreme levels of power might deter groups from doing that. That is to say less DPS oriented more support character intensive.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I could give you half a dozen changes that were made by 4th ed that crapped up the Eberron setting.

The wierd yanking around of the cosmos is just one.

Another is the retconn forcing Dragonborne down everyone's throat... when in the previous edition, anything remotely like half-dragon (aka dragonborne) would have been hunted down as an abomination by the dragons of Argonnessen.

Basically, Eberron was originally interesting because it was SOOO different from the other established worlds in 3rd ed. When 4th ed was released, WOTC made a serious effort to make it all mesh together and be one big disgusting pudding.

Yup, sounds like yet another 4th edition dumb down which yet again destroyed the point of the material they were working with.

[LeLoric]

So if there is a nine hells now in Eberron, I wanna be able to banish devils in Shavarath.

[bigolbear]

The Truthful One has been on everyone's wish list for a long long while. He's like DDO's arch-nemesis... like Deathwing is to WoW. But, to clarify... Eberron does have the 9 grand dukes of hell.

Siberys consists of:

* Daanvi - Perfect Order
* Irian - Eternal Day
* Syrania - Azure Sky
* Lamannia - Twilight Forest
* Mabar - Endless Night
* Baator - Nine Hells <----which should be the home to the 9 archdukes.
* Shavarath - Battleground

Also House Vol used to worship the Raven Queen (aka Lady of Pain), so the cosmology between core D&D and Eberron overlap.

Definitive guide to Eberron lore.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7469132/Th...ory-of-Eberron

Pretty much explains it all.

big big thankyou for that link. devs sticky this link and give the chap or chapette a medal and some free stuff!

[Chaosprism]

The raid bosses I want to "defeat" keeping in mind they're named guys that cant be destroyed permanently and they're labelled as being immortal. Which is why you can only really imprison them.

The daelkyr lords imprisoned in khyber:

According to Gatekeeper legend, Dyrrn the Corruptor is the mightiest daelkyr. Dyrrn is responsible for the creation of dolgaunts and dolgrims. Dyrrn is believed to be trapped beneath the Eldeen Reaches.

Also known as the Lord of Eyes, Belashyrra is said to have created beholders. It is said to have a chamber within its citadel covered in eyes, through which it can look through the eyes of any living creature.

Orlassk, the master of stone, is said to have made medusas, basilisks and other petrifying creatures. Orlassk's citadel is said to be a giant gargoyle formed from living rock that prowls the depths of Khyber.

Kyrzin is a prince of slime and ooze who lives beneath the Shadow Marches. Kyrzin has created numerous types of oozes, including parasitic oozes that may control their host or burst from their host's flesh.


We touched on a lord of dust about to be awakened in the vale (let sleeping dust lie).

[Vengeance777]

We dealt a major blow to the Devils in Shavarath I'd like to do the same to the Demon side. This game needs a Balor general for us to take out. Battling a giant fire engulfed demon with a flaming whip and a vorpal sword of lightning would be epic.

[Fafnir]

I just hope whatever it is isn't done as diet-lite content. I don't overly get the feeling of progressing through content because it's not overly challenging the way it is constructed... it's more about how many times you can cycle it, not whether you can do it.

[KKDragonLord]

Also House Vol used to worship the Raven Queen (aka Lady of Pain), so the cosmology between core D&D and Eberron overlap.

Definitive guide to Eberron lore.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7469132/Th...ory-of-Eberron

Pretty much explains it all.

The Raven Queen is Most Definitely NOT the Lady of Pain.

She is a lousy revamp of Wee Jas the goddess of Death and magic who was ditched because of her uncool name that wasnt Hip enough for the new generations that would come to 4E D&D. It is a Generic Deity sprung up from nowhere lacking in substance and creativity (as most of 4e Lore itself) and Has absolutely no relationship at all with the Awesomest entity of the Greatest setting TSR ever created for 2ed AD&D.

And if you follow that link of yours you will see no mention of her in the Vol part of the history of Eberron. I Suggest we keep the Lore in the 3.5ed of D&D when Keith Baker hadn't yet been forced to include the crappy generic stuff that wizards concocted for 4E.