Devil's Advocate Thread

[Clay]

Since the discussion is so polarizing with regards to the upcoming change to Dark monk's most enjoyable toy, and such a battle of personalities is forming on the top (with a multitude of posts which can only be described as narcissistic) I have the following challenge:

Play the Devil's Advocate. Argue the position that you have so far been arguing against.

If you really are the DnD, DDO, and everything in between, experts then it should pose as no challenge. And for those of us, who, after hours of troubleshooting, cannot get Lammania to work we can read something a little more interesting than the same thing regurgitated about 1200 times in a 1500 post thread.

So, have at it. Of course it is important to stay within the forum rules but one additional: you can only argue the position you really disagree with, AND you gotta sell that position!

[Modinator0]

dark monks deal a ton of damage, they can hit for over 9000 ten times per second! The TOD nerf isn't nearly enough, monks should completely lose TWF bonuses. Also there are practically 0 mobs in the game that are immune to negative energy, and absolutely no important mobs are considered tainted.


amidoinitrite?

[SaIamander]

since The Discussion Is So Polarizing With Regards To The Upcoming Change To Dark Monk's Most Enjoyable Toy, And Such A Battle Of Personalities Is Forming On The Top (with A Multitude Of Posts Which Can Only Be Described As Narcissistic) I Have The Following Challenge:

Play The Devil's Advocate. Argue The Position That You Have So Far Been Arguing Against.

If You Really Are The Dnd, Ddo, And Everything In Between, Experts Then It Should Pose As No Challenge. And For Those Of Us, Who, After Hours Of Troubleshooting, Cannot Get Lammania To Work We Can Read Something A Little More Interesting Than The Same Thing Regurgitated About 1200 Times In A 1500 Post Thread.

So, Have At It. Of Course It Is Important To Stay Within The Forum Rules But One Additional: You Can Only Argue The Position You Really Disagree With, And You Gotta sell that Position!

+1

[Clay]

dark monks deal a ton of damage, they can hit for over 9000 ten times per second! The TOD nerf isn't nearly enough, monks should completely lose TWF bonuses. Also there are practically 0 mobs in the game that are immune to negative energy, and absolutely no important mobs are considered tainted.


amidoinitrite?

that is your best?

not buyin it, sorry.

[SINIBYTE]

that is your best?

not buyin it, sorry.

dis drak monkk stoled my killz, so i wuz like 'yo drak munk! stop steelin my kills" , an he was leik "nowai, i pwn yuo loser!!1", so i wus like, "dam, dem mokks need to be nerfed sumthin hard, knowwhatimsayin?". and dis 1 time i was leik yo them monkks has moar killz then me, so i wuz leik yo munk doont kill so much cuz i wan to kill bad guys to! and he was like 'lol loser yuou cant has my uber skillz!"1 so in sumaries dats y dem drak munks need to be nerfded.

[Chai]

I have another good one. Take off your player hat. Put on your DM hat. Then argue your position.

You will find that alot of things you will support as a min maxing MMO player you will think are completely rediculous and broken as a DM.

500 point backslaps every 15 seconds at level 9? Not in my campaign.

[SINIBYTE]

I have another good one. Take off your player hat. Put on your DM hat. Then argue your position.

You will find that alot of things you will support as a min maxing MMO player you will think are completely rediculous and broken as a DM.

500 point backslaps every 15 seconds at level 9? Not in my campaign.

I think most everyone (aside from multiclass builds) has agreed that it's probably overpowered at level 9. Many have suggested (even myself) that a scaling option would be ideal. TOD = (monk level * 25). However, none of the changes being proposed by the development team suggest that they think its overpowered at level 9, or we'd see some evidence of that. OP at 9? Probably. OP at 20? Not at all.

[Srozbun]

I'm tired of my WF sorc being one-shotted by level 9 monks in the pvp pit! I mean common! I'm level 20 and a sorc and this is pvp we're talking about. I should be the one doing the pwning! ToD is overpowered and this nerf is loooong overdue.

amidoinitrite?

[Deathseeker]

I'll try it for real...

The Dark monk change is not good for the class. Dark monks will become inferior to the light path both in terms of dps and in terms of buffs. ToD was their main claim to fame, and the change makes it decent at best.

The fort save will drop the effective dps from ToD by likely 25%. The debuff may bring that back up, except that in reality nobody tends to actively debuff. Sure, one can argue they should start debuffing, but if debuffing is not an enjoyable part of the game for many, why should they be forced to.

The game is about enjoyment. Dark monks were enjoying ToD. This change will make it less fun. What's the benefit to counter that? Balance is always a nice goal, but if it just makes things less fun for the sake of balance, it's not worth it.

Well, I gave it my best shot...

[Srozbun]

i Think Most Everyone (aside From Multiclass Builds) Has Agreed That It's Probably Overpowered At Level 9. Many Have Suggested (even Myself) That A Scaling Option Would Be Ideal. Tod = (monk Level * 25). However, None Of The Changes Being Proposed By The Development Team Suggest That They Think Its Overpowered At Level 9, Or We'd See Some Evidence Of That. Op At 9? definitely. Op At 20? maybe.

Ftfy

[Modinator0]

I have another good one. Take off your player hat. Put on your DM hat. Then argue your position.

You will find that alot of things you will support as a min maxing MMO player you will think are completely rediculous and broken as a DM.

500 point backslaps every 15 seconds at level 9? Not in my campaign.

I think we can all agree that 99.9999% of the **** in DDO would never fly in a PnP campaign. Firewalls and bladebarriers that you can kite an entire dungeon through?

[Clay]

I think most everyone (aside from multiclass builds) has agreed that it's probably overpowered at level 9. Many have suggested (even myself) that a scaling option would be ideal. TOD = (monk level * 25). However, none of the changes being proposed by the development team suggest that they think its overpowered at level 9, or we'd see some evidence of that. OP at 9? Probably. OP at 20? Not at all.

/fail

Epic fail.

You are supposed to argue the position you actually disagree with, yet make a convincing argument.

Funny stories like the one above are kind of a fail but was entertaining... so I let it slide.

Imagine you are M****** and argue that point.

[Clay]

I'll try it for real...

The Dark monk change is not good for the class. Dark monks will become inferior to the light path both in terms of dps and in terms of buffs. ToD was their main claim to fame, and the change makes it decent at best.

The fort save will drop the effective dps from ToD by likely 25%. The debuff may bring that back up, except that in reality nobody tends to actively debuff. Sure, one can argue they should start debuffing, but if debuffing is not an enjoyable part of the game for many, why should they be forced to.

The game is about enjoyment. Dark monks were enjoying ToD. This change will make it less fun. What's the benefit to counter that? Balance is always a nice goal, but if it just makes things less fun for the sake of balance, it's not worth it.

Well, I gave it my best shot...

Wow. I'd buy that for a dollar! I actually believe that that is your real feeling on the subject!

+1 to you!

[sirdanile]

Great Thread Idea! I'll give it a shot later when i'm not at work.

[AaronB]

Deathseeker's post above was one of the better attempts, but it still greatly understates that position. The drop to ToD is more than 25%, and it isn't just that Dark monks are reluctant to bother with debuffs; they are almost never worth using (they share the same timer as touch of death, mobs worth debuffing are immune to curses anyway, and so on).

Ok, my attempt for the pro-nerf. No other class can do 500-2500 damage on demand to anything. Sure, in dps over time that's not more than barb/fighter criticals, or rogue sneak attack damage, and they all have lit II strikes as well; but it drives us crazy that monks can do it on demand while other classes have just hope for good rolls. And since the name is "touch of death" and we think that sounds like negative energy, it should be made not to work on undead or constructs. Monks have less to lose against them anyway since they don't have the big criticals or much sneak attack damage, so to be consistant we should weaken them further against foes where they were better by comparison to other classes.

[Bacab]

ToD should not have been nerfed.

Dark monks should out DPS Kensai fighters and Frenzy Berserker Barbs.

Dark monks should be THE BEST DPS in the game...have improved evasion...have abundant step and the best s or some of the best saves in the game.

1000-2500 points of damage every 15 seconds IN ADDITION to your "normal" dps is not over-powered at all.

Dark monks should be able to build exactly like a barb...max STR and CON and leftover in DEX just to qualify for GTWF. Monks do not need INT for skill points or WIS for saves or AC or DCs for combat tricks and ToD.

Monk's should 100% neglect their saves/AC because their job is to DPS and ONLY to DPS.

Only stupid devs would NERF TOD...it's like they are trying to balance the class that I play...which is complete BS!

I used to play a batman build...then this toon was an exploiter tempest ranger...then a FB...now hes a a dark monk...and they are nerfing it. My friends claim I only play "flavor of the month" or "overpowered builds that obviously are not WAI". Well screw them!

Also Monks should get native UMD.

And since Paladins can crit their Smites and Divine Sacrifices...I want to be able to crit my 2-5 ToDs that go off if a Double Strike occurs.

Why am I limited to *only* 1000-2500 damage?

Also I want some named Raid loot wraps in tune with the Sword of Shadows. I want the "Handwraps of Shadows". It would be addy and 19-20/x3 Crit range....just like the Khopesh.

The end.


and actually the "Handwraps of Shadows" idea I actually do think it would be cool and something for monks to look forward to.

[P1rat3cat]

ToD should not have been nerfed.

Dark monks should out DPS Kensai fighters and Frenzy Berserker Barbs.

Dark monks should be THE BEST DPS in the game...have improved evasion...have abundant step and the best s or some of the best saves in the game.

1000-2500 points of damage every 15 seconds IN ADDITION to your "normal" dps is not over-powered at all.

Dark monks should be able to build exactly like a barb...max STR and CON and leftover in DEX just to qualify for GTWF. Monks do not need INT for skill points or WIS for saves or AC or DCs for combat tricks and ToD.

Monk's should 100% neglect their saves/AC because their job is to DPS and ONLY to DPS.

Only stupid devs would NERF TOD...it's like they are trying to balance the class that I play...which is complete BS!

I used to play a batman build...then this toon was an exploiter tempest ranger...then a FB...now hes a a dark monk...and they are nerfing it. My friends claim I only play "flavor of the month" or "overpowered builds that obviously are not WAI". Well screw them!

Also Monks should get native UMD.

And since Paladins can crit their Smites and Divine Sacrifices...I want to be able to crit my 2-5 ToDs that go off if a Double Strike occurs.

Why am I limited to *only* 1000-2500 damage?

Also I want some named Raid loot wraps in tune with the Sword of Shadows. I want the "Handwraps of Shadows". It would be addy and 19-20/x3 Crit range....just like the Khopesh.

The end.


and actually the "Handwraps of Shadows" idea I actually do think it would be cool and something for monks to look forward to.

This 1000 times, + they lack some form of spells and healing.

Give Dark monks the power to cast the Heal spell at will cost 1 ki, Shot chain lightning from their eyes 10 times per rest cost 1 ki AND fart firewalls unlimited times cost 1 ki.

Honestly, this was NO sarcasm at all! Seriously!11!!

[MateCarefor]

First point:
The multi-strike aspect of ToD was a coding error and needed to be removed.
At the same time, things need to osciallate further to the reduction side with a change in damage type to offset the time the strike was being used to such beneficial effect.
This 'nerf' allows for over-reaction and distraction in the class such that a minor upping of the ability later will cure all ills, and make the development team look like heroes and be 'responsive to the community'.
So, it is less about gaming, and more about good development policy.

Second point:
During the next Lamannia update, ToD should be reduced in base damage as well as increased in level required, including the feat 'Self Sufficient'
Why?
Finally gives the Archers someone else to point at as lame in a group/forum war


[howwuzzat toofer, boss? dididoitrite?]

[Clay]

ToD should not have been nerfed.

Dark monks should out DPS Kensai fighters and Frenzy Berserker Barbs.

~snip~


and actually the "Handwraps of Shadows" idea I actually do think it would be cool and something for monks to look forward to.

sorry don't buy it--no rep for you!

[Clay]

This 1000 times, + they lack some form of spells and healing.

Give Dark monks the power to cast the Heal spell at will cost 1 ki, Shot chain lightning from their eyes 10 times per rest cost 1 ki AND fart firewalls unlimited times cost 1 ki.

Honestly, this was NO sarcasm at all! Seriously!11!!

Sarcasm is NOT Devil's Advocate.

/fail.