13 Monk/7 Rogue sneak help?

[Mallets]

So I'm trying to put a 13 Monk / 7 Rogue build together. I'll go Dark path, with Ninja Spy for all the sneak attack damage.

Before I ask my question... I'll prep it by saying that I've already had a big discusion about the use of sneak attack... about how some end mobs have Heavy Fort or simply have sneak attack immunity. And I know that you don't have to be in sneak mode to sneak attack. And I know that many times, being in sneak mode can be hinderence to the amount of DPS you can do (say you stay in in slow moving sneak mode instead of just quickly jumping on a mob that is aggro'd to another party member).


Now my question may seem silly. And may not make much sense... so let me prep it some more. With Ninja Spy I, I get Shadow Fade... which make me invisible. If I'm correct, with Shadow Fade on, I'm basically invisible. Meaning mobs can't see me (I take it that it's much the same if you had a really high Hide skill). But from what I know (based off the invisible spell), mobs can still hear you.


So here's my question. When I make this build... can I forgo the Hide skill and just max out the Move Silently skill? Will having Shadow Fade on and a really high Move Silently... actually keep me hidden? Or will I still need to put points into Hide?

And lastly... do I even need to worry about putting points into either of these skills (Hide & Move Silently)? Is it even worth it? I like the idea of attacking from the shadows. And at times I'm sure it's actually needed... though I'm sure 95% of sneak attacks will be made out of sneak mode (attacking mobs that are aggro'd to party members).

[Mercureal]

I can't comment on the usefulness of Shadow Fade, but I can comment on the skills.

Hide and Move Silently are very useful when playing solo, if you have patience. In a party, you will very rarely be using them. As you mention, you will get almost all of your sneak attacks when not hidden. There is sometimes a very shortlived and tactical use to going into sneak mode to avoid aggro or position yourself in a fight, but you don't need many levels in the skill for this, and being able to go invisible will give you the same benefit anyway.

In my opinion and as a player who likes using stealth, unless you plan to solo a lot or you find yourself with extra points after maxing the other skills you want, it's not worth the investment.

[Calebro]

My build has the opposite split (13rogue/7monk), but I can help a bit.

So I'm trying to put a 13 Monk / 7 Rogue build together. I'll go Dark path, with Ninja Spy for all the sneak attack damage.

Before I ask my question... I'll prep it by saying that I've already had a big discusion about the use of sneak attack... about how some end mobs have Heavy Fort or simply have sneak attack immunity. And I know that you don't have to be in sneak mode to sneak attack. And I know that many times, being in sneak mode can be hinderence to the amount of DPS you can do (say you stay in in slow moving sneak mode instead of just quickly jumping on a mob that is aggro'd to another party member).


Now my question may seem silly. And may not make much sense... so let me prep it some more. With Ninja Spy I, I get Shadow Fade... which make me invisible. If I'm correct, with Shadow Fade on, I'm basically invisible. Meaning mobs can't see me (I take it that it's much the same if you had a really high Hide skill). But from what I know (based off the invisible spell), mobs can still hear you.


So here's my question. When I make this build... can I forgo the Hide skill and just max out the Move Silently skill? Will having Shadow Fade on and a really high Move Silently... actually keep me hidden? Or will I still need to put points into Hide?
Points in hide is good. As you said, mobs can hear you when you're invis but not sneaking.
Secondly, it costs Ki to keep Shadow Fade running. If you're using it to bypass mobs instead of fighting them, you aren't getting any more Ki because you aren't fighting and you aren't getting more ki because you aren't sneaking. You'll only get about 2 minutes worth before you don't have enough Ki to sustain it any longer. On the other hand, you regain Ki while sneaking, and you regain enough to initiate it again during the time it's effective, so if you continue sneaking, you can keep it up indefinitely. It's slower progress, but it works extremely well for a solo player.
Thirdly, mobs that can see through Invis (beholders, etc) will still see you unless you're actually hidden.

And lastly... do I even need to worry about putting points into either of these skills (Hide & Move Silently)? Is it even worth it? I like the idea of attacking from the shadows. And at times I'm sure it's actually needed... though I'm sure 95% of sneak attacks will be made out of sneak mode (attacking mobs that are aggro'd to party members).
Response above should answer that for you. If you plan on ever sneaking, you need ranks in it. If you plan on using Shadow Fade a lot for the Invis rather than just the Incorp aspect, you either need ranks in it, or you need to fight more.

[Mallets]

Great responses! Very informative!

What I'm basically trying to do is see if I can forgo spending points in "Hide". I want to go trap monkey ane will be hurting for the points.

Another important question that I didn't think of. Do you have to be in Sneak mode for "Move Silently" to actually be in use? I'd think would have to... but not sure.

[Mercureal]

Yes, you have to be in sneak mode for Move Silently to take effect.

[Clay]

If you ever want to sneak... put points into hide and move silently. You can skip a little on Open Lock if you have to... and can skip a little on Spot if you need to. If you want the Rog skills... you need maxed Search and Disable. Spot just clues you in sooner. Since there are few random traps, and those are limited to specific places also, you can "cheat" a little with spot.

But if you want to use sneak effectively, I would recommend putting points in both Hide and Move Silently. It can be a very fun way to do quests. And in some quests it is more efficient to just sneak past every thing, use a noisemaker to pull stuff away from a door.

If you are not happy, you can always reincarnate. Also a Rog past life has a great clickie to use for both sneaking and sneak attack damage.

[Calebro]

If you ever want to sneak... put points into hide and move silently. You can skip a little on Open Lock if you have to... and can skip a little on Spot if you need to. If you want the Rog skills... you need maxed Search and Disable. Spot just clues you in sooner. Since there are few random traps, and those are limited to specific places also, you can "cheat" a little with spot.

But if you want to use sneak effectively, I would recommend putting points in both Hide and Move Silently. It can be a very fun way to do quests. And in some quests it is more efficient to just sneak past every thing, use a noisemaker to pull stuff away from a door.

If you are not happy, you can always reincarnate. Also a Rog past life has a great clickie to use for both sneaking and sneak attack damage.

Just wanted to chime i here Clay.
For a trapmonkey Spot can be skimped on. Heck, it can be ignored if you don't mind having to roll saves while looking for the box.
But if you plan on sneaking around, spot becomes important. You can still skimp on it a bit, but much less than if you were *just* a trapmonkey.

It does little good if you can sneak all over the place with no one ever knowing you were there.... if you bump into every hidden mob you come across and initiate combat anyway.

Hide, MS & Spot. If you don't have all three at a moderate score, you don't have any of them.

[Calebro]

Mallet, take a look here.
It's my build that I mentioned before. It might be more rogue than you were planning, and it lacks ToD, but it will give you an idea of how I did my skills. And that might help you build your toon.

[Clay]

Stay with 12 monk at least. Can go 12 monk 8 rog, but the skills can be there. The ninja spy 2, at 12 gives the improved crit shortsword in addition to Touch of Death (granted at lvl 9)

The spot required to see most stealthed mobs is less than max. Personally I like Spot, and max it out... but it is possible to save a few points in spot. You will see little difference from 20 ranks in spot to 23 ranks in spot.

With the Monk levels (5/lvl, 6/lvl after lvl 7): Conc, Hide, MS, Spot doesn't leave much left over for Search, Disable and UMD.
Rogue levels (9/lvl, 10 after lvl 7):

Mallets, the only way you can really fit in all the skills is this progression:

Level 1 (Rogue) 
Skill: Balance (+4) 
Skill: Disable Device (+4) 
Skill: Hide (+4) 
Skill: Jump (+3) 
Skill: Move Silently (+4) 
Skill: Open Lock (+4) 
Skill: Search (+4) 
Skill: Spot (+4) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4) 
 
Level 2 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 3 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 4 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+2) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) 
 
Level 5 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 6 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 7 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+2) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) 
 
Level 8 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move SSilently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 9 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 10 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+3) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) 
 
Level 11 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 12 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+2) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 13 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+3) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) 
 
Level 14 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+0.5) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 15 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 16 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+3) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) 
 
Level 17 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+0.5) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 18 (Monk) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 19 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+4) 
Skill: Search (+2) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3) 
 
Level 20 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+6)

Ninja spy adds a +4 bonus to balance, hide and move silently so can skimp on those a little. The 8th rog is needed to max out your essential skills. I am actually making a 13/7 assassin but didn't bother with Search and disable. You have caused me to reconsider... I might LR when I cap out my current incarnation which is halfway thru a TR.

[Calebro]

Stay with 12 monk at least. Can go 12 monk 8 rog, but the skills can be there. The ninja spy 2, at 12 gives the improved crit shortsword in addition to Touch of Death (granted at lvl 9)

I wasn't attempting to change his mind about the level split. As stated, I was simply referring him to that build so he could see what I did with skills, as this might help him with his build and the inherent difficulty in getting the most out of class skills vs non-class skills.

[Clay]

I wasn't attempting to change his mind about the level split. As stated, I was simply referring him to that build so he could see what I did with skills, as this might help him with his build and the inherent difficulty in getting the most out of class skills vs non-class skills.

I realize that... I looked over your build: yours and Mallet's made me re-examine the build I am currently leveling, and helped me realize it could be better. So thank you both for that.

[Mallets]

I realize that... I looked over your build: yours and Mallet's made me re-examine the build I am currently leveling, and helped me realize it could be better. So thank you both for that.

Cool! Thx for help and info guys!

[Alektronic]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but...

Shadow fade give an incorporeal miss chance (like blur) and has absolutely nothing to do with invisiblity. Monsters will still aggro you and hit you, so for a stealth build, you still have to invest in hide and ms.

[Calebro]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but...

Shadow fade give an incorporeal miss chance (like blur) and has absolutely nothing to do with invisiblity. Monsters will still aggro you and hit you, so for a stealth build, you still have to invest in hide and ms.

Wrong.
There are two parts to Shadow Fade.
The first is a one minute 25% miss chance due to incorporeality [not like blur, which is concealment] so it stacks with blur/displace and cannot be dispelled.
The second part is a one minute invisibility, which breaks just like the spell does.

For a stealth build, you still have to invest in hide/move silently. But you still have an at-will invis if you have the ki for it.