U7 new Shintao Monk impressions (breadth of applicability)

[Coldin]

Where was that said? I do not necessarily doubt you, but I would like confirmation.

It is pretty obviously a bug and should work like ToD and have a chance for multiple procs.

As said by Thoon.

We are aware of the issue. I could be wrong, but I don't believe this will be addressed in Update 7. Sometimes things that 'seem' small have large halo effects and are risky to address late in a cycle. This is very likely one of those. But again, I could be wrong.

The Known Issues list will be updated again before final release to Live. It's actually a long process getting that list together, so I'm going to try to do it once everything is finalized.

To be honest, I don't understand why all the other monk abilities work just fine with TWF, but Shintoa's doesn't. I guess they were based on different code. Still is sad though.

[Angelus_dead]

There are a large majority of non fort monsters?

Yup.

all of end game is high fort

That doesn't resemble the truth even slightly.

the thing that makes the new TOD changes stupid is the fact that you LOSE dps as you level and attempted higher hp mobs.

That is incorrect and illogical. It makes perfect sense that higher-level opponents have more resistance to attacks.

[Angelus_dead]

One part of Shinato is working better than advertised: Instead of getting a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws against Tainted monsters, you get a +6 bonus which stacks with Resistance items. (This is similar to how Protection from Evil and Holy Aura claim to provide a Resistance save bonus, but yet manage to stack with Resistance).

This is a better design than the alternative, which would have Shintao have only a measly +1 saves above your regular Resistance 5 item. (And if you ever get an epic item with Resistance 6, it would do nothing).

Thus, I suggest the following change. Instead of +6 Deflection AC and +6 Resistance saves from Shintao 3, make it +3 untyped AC and +3 untyped saves.

[Kza]

One part of Shinato is working better than advertised: Instead of getting a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws against Tainted monsters, you get a +6 bonus which stacks with Resistance items. (This is similar to how Protection from Evil and Holy Aura claim to provide a Resistance save bonus, but yet manage to stack with Resistance).

This is a better design than the alternative, which would have Shintao have only a measly +1 saves above your regular Resistance 5 item. (And if you ever get an epic item with Resistance 6, it would do nothing).

Thus, I suggest the following change. Instead of +6 Deflection AC and +6 Resistance saves from Shintao 3, make it +3 untyped AC and +3 untyped saves.

This alone would make the pre from ok to really nice, as many light monks go for ac.

[Wrendd]

As said by Thoon.

To be honest, I don't understand why all the other monk abilities work just fine with TWF, but Shintoa's doesn't. I guess they were based on different code. Still is sad though.

Thank you for that, I missed that post, wherever it was.

I agree that it is sad that there will most likely be no fix for it when U7 hits, but hopefully they can get it fixed soon thereafter.

[Drfirewater79]

Yup.


That doesn't resemble the truth even slightly.


That is incorrect and illogical. It makes perfect sense that higher-level opponents have more resistance to attacks.

Wait sorry we got our forts crossed ..

I ment fort save .. you ment fortification .. nm.

ToD is ruined based on high level fort saves ... crit fortification is not an issue ... and doesnt unbalancing strike make it so your sneaks land anyway? Not sure.
As for higher level opponents having more resistance to attacks .. yes ... sure that makes sense ... but doing physically less damage does not ...
not only are they lowering our DPS ... but they increase there resistance ON TOP OF THAT.

This is why the changes make dark monks somewhat useless (not entirely ... i mean a good dark monk is still better then a noob barbarian .. but not by much) While i agree they where slightly overpowered ... they where not as overpowered as would dictate.

Mobs getting more resistance makes sense .. us ACTUALLY DOING LESS DAMAGE .. doesnt. Now making it neg energy makes sense ... as its a dark monk power ... but the fort save was not needed ... just a resistance type or DR vs neg energy added to some mobs.

But its neither here nor there ... its far to late to make intelligent changes to ToD now.

[Drfirewater79]

One part of Shinato is working better than advertised: Instead of getting a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws against Tainted monsters, you get a +6 bonus which stacks with Resistance items. (This is similar to how Protection from Evil and Holy Aura claim to provide a Resistance save bonus, but yet manage to stack with Resistance).

This is a better design than the alternative, which would have Shintao have only a measly +1 saves above your regular Resistance 5 item. (And if you ever get an epic item with Resistance 6, it would do nothing).

Thus, I suggest the following change. Instead of +6 Deflection AC and +6 Resistance saves from Shintao 3, make it +3 untyped AC and +3 untyped saves.

I agree with this 100% ... an untyped ac and saves boost would give shintao 3 (18 lvls of monk) a nice boost and make higher levels of monk really attractive.

[Coldin]

Wait sorry we got our forts crossed ..

I ment fort save .. you ment fortification .. nm.

ToD is ruined based on high level fort saves ... crit fortification is not an issue ... and doesnt unbalancing strike make it so your sneaks land anyway? Not sure.
As for higher level opponents having more resistance to attacks .. yes ... sure that makes sense ... but doing physically less damage does not ...
not only are they lowering our DPS ... but they increase there resistance ON TOP OF THAT.

This is why the changes make dark monks somewhat useless (not entirely ... i mean a good dark monk is still better then a noob barbarian .. but not by much) While i agree they where slightly overpowered ... they where not as overpowered as would dictate.

Mobs getting more resistance makes sense .. us ACTUALLY DOING LESS DAMAGE .. doesnt. Now making it neg energy makes sense ... as its a dark monk power ... but the fort save was not needed ... just a resistance type or DR vs neg energy added to some mobs.

But its neither here nor there ... its far to late to make intelligent changes to ToD now.

Spellcasters do less damage all the time because a monster saved. Makes perfect sense.

And 250 damage, most likely 500+ because of TWF, is still a lot of damage and more than worthwhile for using the ability.

And this isn't a TOD thread. It's a Shintao thread.

[Drfirewater79]

Thank you for that, I missed that post, wherever it was.

I agree that it is sad that there will most likely be no fix for it when U7 hits, but hopefully they can get it fixed soon thereafter.

They kinda hinted that monks are getting alot of PRE attention ... when it comes to balancing.
ToD was nerfed but eladrin stated they are looking at ways to balance out the dps issue with ninja spy 3. Also i wouldnt doubt that ninja spy 1 and 2 get a few more perks that mean something in game (walk on water is cool .. but not useful outside of abbot .. and in abbot DI is still better over all)

My bet is we are not done with Shintao either ... some small tweeks to make it a little more useful against giants and humanoids (which make up a great many number of the enemies in this game and are only likely to increase) such as maybe changing the healing curse to "add taint" to non tainted creatures for the sake of allowing jade tomb and jade strike to work on non "tainted" races.

I expect many monk changes in the next three updates ...

[Drfirewater79]

Spellcasters do less damage all the time because a monster saved. Makes perfect sense.

And 250 damage, most likely 500+ because of TWF, is still a lot of damage and more than worthwhile for using the ability.

And this isn't a TOD thread. It's a Shintao thread.

Spell casters have options monks do not ... firewall not doing 500 per crit .. only doing 300 .. switch to lighting .. and crit for 1300 or switch to ice for 1300 ...monks dont have options. That was my point ..

once twf is fixed with shintao smite effect ... this change will be more obvious as a bad one.... My point was not to make it a TOD thread ... but an issue of options to which monks over all dark and light monks ...are left lacking.

We dont have as many working weapon types (as none are nearly as effective as handwraps and greensteel wraps dont exist and most monk abilities dont work with even monk weapons.) While earth combo allows for a bit more damage for non named mobs .... raid bosses are immune making monks over all less useful in raids.

TOD is just one easy example of how things have gone wrong ... and it was a direct response to a misunderstanding ... low fort as in fortification vs low fort as in fortitude, and that was the only reason ToD was mentioned.

[J1NG]

My bet is we are not done with Shintao either ... some small tweeks to make it a little more useful against giants and humanoids (which make up a great many number of the enemies in this game and are only likely to increase) such as maybe changing the healing curse to "add taint" to non tainted creatures for the sake of allowing jade tomb and jade strike to work on non "tainted" races.

I have reservations about having that happen; allowing the Tomb of Jade and Jade Strike to work on non "Tainted" enemies.

1. Other than making the Shintao now out of character from Turbine's initial design (specialism against "Tainted"), it also allows (theoretically) other PrE to request "enhancements" to their PrE, breaking them out of their specialism weakness (weak areas).

2. Besides that, I (personally) view that as an extra easy button that's unnecessary. I mean, are monks all of a sudden unable to combat humanoids and giants without help from these PrE? Are Pale Masters unable to deal with undead? etc etc. Just my opinion, but if your monk is having such trouble, it may be possible that your monk build is an issue, and not the PrE.

3. I'm all for expanding the list of "Tainted" a bit more, but allowing you to "mark" or "Taint" something so you can hit your "special" on them, means you're not a Shintao Monk in the first place really. Since you're the contamination then, not the removal agent (the current general description of the Shintao-Monk in DDO right now... sort of). In short, breaking out of "character" for the class.

Those are just some of my views on why I'm not too big a fan of what you suggested for the Shintao Monk. Expanding the Tainted list, sure, the list isn't encompassing of stuff that should be in the list after all. But "Tainting" others so you can use the Shintao-Monk abilities on them? No, sounds too cheesy (in my opinion).

J1NG

[Drfirewater79]

I have reservations about having that happen; allowing the Tomb of Jade and Jade Strike to work on non "Tainted" enemies.

1. Other than making the Shintao now out of character from Turbine's initial design (specialism against "Tainted"), it also allows (theoretically) other PrE to request "enhancements" to their PrE, breaking them out of their specialism weakness (weak areas).

2. Besides that, I (personally) view that as an extra easy button that's unnecessary. I mean, are monks all of a sudden unable to combat humanoids and giants without help from these PrE? Are Pale Masters unable to deal with undead? etc etc. Just my opinion, but if your monk is having such trouble, it may be possible that your monk build is an issue, and not the PrE.

3. I'm all for expanding the list of "Tainted" a bit more, but allowing you to "mark" or "Taint" something so you can hit your "special" on them, means you're not a Shintao Monk in the first place really. Since you're the contamination then, not the removal agent (the current general description of the Shintao-Monk in DDO right now... sort of). In short, breaking out of "character" for the class.

Those are just some of my views on why I'm not too big a fan of what you suggested for the Shintao Monk. Expanding the Tainted list, sure, the list isn't encompassing of stuff that should be in the list after all. But "Tainting" others so you can use the Shintao-Monk abilities on them? No, sounds too cheesy (in my opinion).

J1NG

1) All other classes are able to be just as effective against one type of monster as they are another .. why not monks?
Only other class which is also unbalanced dps wise for this reason is the palidan KOTC pre.

Kensai dont only get a crit range increase and damage increase vs some types of mobs
frenzied barbs dont get restrictions to frenzy
defender builds dont get restrictions to how much ac vs some types of mobs.
pale masters have fire wall and a hundred other spells that work against undead .. but also have many necro spells that work against them as well ... control and halt for instance. (but lets be honest self healing is the major benifit from pale master ... as well as forms ... something monks dont get from pres)
Arcmage spells work against all mobs equally
tempest bonuses are not detailed based on race (notice favored enemy is a class ability not a pre ability)

If the abilities where light monk abilities it would be one thing ... but they are not .. they are shintao abilities.... and a pre that boosts your abilities against a small number of mobs ... and leaves no options for future end game ... no usefulness in current epic missions (most of which have no "tainted" creatures at all in them) outside of there stunning ability .. which lets be honest ... is hardly a reason on its own to have a light monk along... especially since even reduced the dark monk will do more damage and has better combos for epics.

2) EASY BUTTON!!! are you serious? they still get saves .. they still get immunities when it applies ... forcing someone to hit them with an ability to mark them as tainted (which would prolly have a save) then forcing them to make a second save before confirming there tomb ... then giving them additional saves after entombed ... how is that an easy button .. when the dc is the same as stun?

I also love it how people assume character builds have anything to do with abilities granted by PRE .... trust me there is absolutely nothing wrong with my build ... in fact my achievements speak for themselves ... yet to meet another monk on my server who successfully solos as much content as i do ... personally... There is no easy button making an ability granted at lvl 18 useable on something other then mobs that will save more often then not. Its called balance.... something the dev team has been having a hard time understanding ... mainly because people on these forums assume everything is an easy button ... and refuse to look at other classes and there ROLES in this game when considering what is balanced and what is overpowered/underpowered.

3) By your same arguement ... keeping in character ... they need to remove the taint aspect all together ... as per pnp rule set which this game is built around. Outside of campaign setting of Rokugan Shin-tao "taint" is vs all evil creatures ... detect taint becomes detect evil .... smite taint becomes smite evil.

If they want to keep shin-tao in character they either have to change smite evil to be smite taint .... or come back to ebberron and take the taint away all together ... this is not rokugan after all.

------
It only sounds cheezy because you dont realize the unbalanced aura of shintao pre in DDO and how badly they have screwed it up compared to PnP.

As someone who loves monks .. light and dark .... and has many many melee characters ....I notice this directly. Shintao is much more useful then it was .. and Dark monks are much less useful then they where .. but neither is balanced with Kensai .. Tempest ... Frenzy ... Pale Master... ArcMage ...

in the end BALANCE is the issue we are dealing with ... not Flavor.

I couldnt care less about flavor ... i care about exclusion from raids ... exclusion from epics ... exclusion over all ... and I am not egoing out .. cause i dont worry about myself at all .. i have many people willing to have me in there raids....

I worry about everyone else. I hear the same BS in every pug raid i attend on my fighters .. monks are not wanted by many people ... especially in pugs because they are lower dps and in the case of hard and epic raids .. where dps is the main consern ... Monks over all .. are not balanced out with other classes in the same role.

Monks are melee dps role .. and are no where close to other melee dpsers in raids especially post update 7 since most raid bosses have high fort saves and are immune to monk combo attacks.

[Kraki]

1) All other classes are able to be just as effective against one type of monster as they are another .. why not monks?
Only other class which is also unbalanced dps wise for this reason is the palidan KOTC pre.

The most obvious core example of exactly what you refer to is the ranger class which gains bonuses to selected Favored Enemies and the Enhancement lines which go with those feats.

Ranger, Favored Enemy
- Favored Damage
- Favored Defense
- Favored Resistance

Your argument that an extension of the core using PrE should be balanced has merit, however even the core has similar features.

[Coldin]

Spell casters have options monks do not ... firewall not doing 500 per crit .. only doing 300 .. switch to lighting .. and crit for 1300 or switch to ice for 1300 ...monks dont have options. That was my point ..

once twf is fixed with shintao smite effect ... this change will be more obvious as a bad one.... My point was not to make it a TOD thread ... but an issue of options to which monks over all dark and light monks ...are left lacking.

We dont have as many working weapon types (as none are nearly as effective as handwraps and greensteel wraps dont exist and most monk abilities dont work with even monk weapons.) While earth combo allows for a bit more damage for non named mobs .... raid bosses are immune making monks over all less useful in raids.

TOD is just one easy example of how things have gone wrong ... and it was a direct response to a misunderstanding ... low fort as in fortification vs low fort as in fortitude, and that was the only reason ToD was mentioned.

Smite Tainted creature will never deal as much damage as TOD though. Smite can at best deal about 100 damage per hit. TOD at worst deals 250.

Monks do need some other weapon types. With transmuting no longer changing damage types, it's hard to find good slashing weapons that deal a fair amount of damage. But I'm really not sure if that's that major of an issue. Dex rogues are similar restricted to mostly piercing weapons for the best damage.

As for the suggestions, I doubt we'll see any marking as tainted ability, or an expansion of the tainted list to include giants and such. We might see some of the abilities expanded to work on more monster types. Then, we might not.

[J1NG]

*** Warning: Long Post ***

Drfirewater79,

Now, in no way am I speaking for everyone, however I am speaking from the experience that I have had since I joined DDO. And I must say, in no raid or run I've ever been in, have I been denied or dropped because I lacked dps. And my main is a Light Monk (not Shintao-Monk, just plain jane Light Monk). Not only that, my monk is a Dexterity based Light Monk (Halfing, now Warforged), so certainly not dps based.

Whilst forming, the only reasons I've seen Monk's get denied, is when the monks are seen to have dubious levels of equipment, experience, or stats. The Monk class, as you and I both know, is a stat and equipment intensive class; an advanced class to play.

Unfortuantely, many people do not really understand how to play a Monk effectively, and so I personally feel that it is not the class abilities (from the core class or PrE), but in fact from experience and knowledge of how to play the Monk class effectively to be the bigger cause of Monk players being denied access to runs. Else, by the logic and reasons you have put forth, I surely would not have been able to run the many runs I have now on my Dexterity based Light Monk.

It may be different on your server, I can not tell, as I have not yet had the pleasure of running amoungst the ranks of Sarlona.

However, your statement suggests that Monks (and Light Monks in particular) are shunned on all servers. I am here to say that I have not experienced this on Thelanis since I've joined DDO. Hence, why I am suggesting that the issue of rejecting Monks due to low dps may be Server centric, or that there are other underlining issues at play than the one you have suggested.

***

As for the Shintao-Monk as it stands now on the Lamannia build, I personally do not see as much of an issue with it as you do.

***

Regarding the Shintao-Monk being undesired in Epic runs especially since only the Kukan-Do is any use when there isn't any "Tainted", I can and will say this. In the Epic runs I've been in, "Crowd Control", is especially powerful. In longer runs and raids in particular. So the "stuns" are more than welcome.

Currently, if you want to stun often, you need a high Wisdom, yet with a Shintao-Monk, a balanced build without max'ing out the Wisdom, can now "Stun" with both "Stunning Fist" and "Kukan-Do" on a larger variety of targets. Stunning Fist on low Fortitude targets (casters) and Kukan-Do on low Will targets (melee). Whereas you previously needed to really invest into equipment and stats into Wisdom to make it land often, now you don't.

I personally see that as a plus than a negative. But again, this requires game knowledge of what is weak in what saves so you know which ability to use, something that is more associated with experience than simply having the right abilities.

***

In regards to the statement of "Easy Button", you will need to forgive me, for I have taken your statement as literal. You had said (in essence) "a change to the Healing Curse, to add a "Taint" to the target so the Shintao Abilities can be applied to other targets", but you did not at any point mention that you will allow it a save. Although presumptuous of me to assume so (that there will be no save), especially since the Healing Curse itself requires a save to land, had I not assumed this change, then what you were really suggesting is that the Shintao-Monk abilities work on anything that is affected by a Healing Curse, which if you had stated would have been much clearer.

However, I still maintain that this suggestion would be an "Easy Button".

Under the situation you have postulated, a target must make a save vs a "Taint", then they must make a save vs "Tomb of Jade", and that it is comparable to "Stunning Fist/Blow" in terms of DC. I agree, but also do not agree.

The DC may be the same, but under no circumstances is the chances of landing the effect the same. Enemies vulnerable to the Healing Curse, which is a Will based save, almost certainly means will be affected by the Shintao-Monk abilities after, as they too are Will based saves. Meaning you have just allowed almost every melee type (who almost always has low Will saves) to become affected by the Shintao-Monk's abilities. And last time I checked, the amount of Melee enemy types in the game with low Will saves is quite a significant portion of the game.

Compare this to the Flesh to Stone spell on casters that utilise the Fortitude save, and you can see a vast disparity between the two. The Tomb of Jade Shintao Monk ability already allows it to "Entomb" enemies that would otherwise be unable to be "Entombed" any other way, as well as being able to land efficiently on most enemies it is currently designed for (Tainted).

Hence, why I said an "Easy Button". 1/3 or more of the game enemies vulnerable to the Shintao-Monk abilities? Virtually free 30's beat down on all mobs? Other players will either cry foul over their own classes PrE impotence, or demand that the Shintao-Monk gets "Balanced" out, and not to the Monk's favour either.

Make no mistake, I applaud your enthusiasm to improve the Monk's disposition in DDO, but what you have suggested is not the answer I believe.

***

As for the Shintao-Monk's "Smite Tainted" to "Smite Evil", you can request that from Turbine, but since Turbine has just changed it from "Smite Evil" to "Smite Tainted", I have doubts as to whether Turbine see's a point to changing it once more. Not only that, it doesn't fit in with "their" theme of the Shintao-Monk. *shrugs*

***

I share your concern regarding other monk players, but I am more in favour of showing or advising other monk players on ways to improve their game and play in DDO than messing around with the abilities and functions of the Shintao-Monk PrE, or any other Monk PrE.

Just my opinion there.

J1NG

[Angelus_dead]

the Healing Curse itself requires a save to land

The Healing Curse does not allow a saving throw or SR. It requires an attack roll against AC.

[J1NG]

The Healing Curse does not allow a saving throw or SR. It requires an attack roll against AC.

Oh, my bad then.

But still bad then, since you might as well make all the abilities effect everything then rather than "Taint" first. Since the "Curse of Healing" will affect everything bar those immune to curses. And thats way overpowered.

J1NG

[Angelus_dead]

But still bad then, since you might as well make all the abilities effect everything then rather than "Taint" first. Since the "Curse of Healing" will affect everything bar those immune to curses. And thats way overpowered.

However, that is pretty similar to my old suggestion for adding a Hexblade class to DDO: allow that class to train APs for stronger melee against any opponent with a curse on it.

People have also suggested that some specialties for Rogue or Ranger be allowed to "study" an enemy for 5 seconds and then gain bonuses against it.

[Lifespawn]

Smite Tainted creature will never deal as much damage as TOD though. Smite can at best deal about 100 damage per hit. TOD at worst deals 250.

Monks do need some other weapon types. With transmuting no longer changing damage types, it's hard to find good slashing weapons that deal a fair amount of damage. But I'm really not sure if that's that major of an issue. Dex rogues are similar restricted to mostly piercing weapons for the best damage.

As for the suggestions, I doubt we'll see any marking as tainted ability, or an expansion of the tainted list to include giants and such. We might see some of the abilities expanded to work on more monster types. Then, we might not.

smite is 1/2 the time of tod and on my live build 12c/7m/1ftr i'm getting crits in the 140's and the damage is based on monk levels so there is no way it only does 100 on a 20 monk.

[Angelus_dead]

smite is 1/2 the time of tod and on my live build 12c/7m/1ftr i'm getting crits in the 140's and the damage is based on monk levels so there is no way it only does 100 on a 20 monk.

A Monk20's Smite adds +67 damage, or about 81 considering the possibility of a crit.