U7 new Shintao Monk impressions (breadth of applicability)

[TheIvanovFamily]

Uhmm the dance first you're happy enough with to mention how well it works happened to also run off charisma, which you think is a stupid modifier for the ranged stun. So I admit I'm a little confused.
Especially as the dance DC (which is a finishing move) is exactly the same as the Kukan-Do DC.
(Both are 10 + Monk Level + Chr Mod)

I like dance because:
1) It's free, no build cost, just have to be lvl 20 monk.
2) It lasts a full minute.
3) It incorporates 2 high dps strikes in its setup (earth4 -> wind4 -> fire1 -> dancefist)

That being said, It usually does NOT work on the first attempt, or the 2nd, or often the 3rd. If i had changed my build to get access to it, i would be highly disappointed.

My DC is 34 with the following charisma: 8 starting + 3 tome +6 item +1 litany.

Also, since you quoted me, here's exactly what i said:

...If I need multi CC I have dance fist and dark charm for no build cost...

1) I never made any statement on the effectiveness of dancefist
2) I never said it was a "stupid" modifier, I said that it was a poor modifier. As in, it is a modifier that is generally seen as one of the few (the other being intelligence, and possibly wisdom if you) stats that monks can get by without having to put points into.

Here's a short Kukan vs Dancefist summary:
1) Kukan has a 10dc advantage, but only fires once. Dancefist has 80% of 2x and 10% of doublestrike if in wind4.
2) Kukan has a 15 second downtime, while Dancefist can be prepped and fired every 4 or so seconds for as long as you have Ki.
3) I do not know Kukan's Ki cost, and Dancefist Ki cost varies by which strikes you use to prep it.
4) Kukan is ranged, Dancefist is not.

-Kukan has a huge (10) DC advantage that is somewhat mitigated by Dancefist having a high chance of firing multiple times.
-Dancefist can be activated roughly 4 times for every one activation Kukan, with an I-made-it-up average of firing about 6 times as often as Kukan (80% offhand + 10% doublestrike = almost 2 per activation, assume one time it only fires once and the other is a miss).
-Dancefist requires a to-hit check while Kukan does not.
-Kukan can be used with Dancefist, because Dancefist only requires 20 monk.

I understand that farming Devouts can be painful (mine took 16 runs, full group). However, most people don't farm Devouts with a full group, which lowers their chance-per-ransact of getting them. Since Devouts, while an annoying low level item to farm, are monk's greensteel (DR beaters for shroud and such), I think it evens out vs having to farm Shroud or the AH/brokers for DR beaters.

I mentioned the mythic Holy/Vicious GEOB handwraps because someone always pops up and mentions them and how awesome it would be to use them with Shintao. Never mind the fact that they are so rare that they are essentially not buyable. I have seen people offering absurd amounts for a pair of Holy/Vicious GEOB or Metalline GEOB for months and never managed to get any. Not absurd like AH prices absurd. I mean absurd like you have to get multiple character to hold the plat due to the 4.2million cap per character, and then having to switch again to your bank for the items that come with the plat.

[TheIvanovFamily]

Is that a joke? Monks with charisma?

My monk with a starting 8 charisma has 18 charisma. If I wasn't lazy i could get 22

8 starting + 3 tome + 6 item + 1 Litany = 18 + 2 exceptional (ToD ring) + 2 Yugoloth potion = 22

the +2 exceptional is only really viable if you are doing it for UMD, too much DPS loss for combat from losing unarmed +1d6 or +2d6 and the +2 damage from set

Edit: forgot to mention WHY i actually have charisma on my monk:

UMD for Raise Dead scrolls and others, currently 80% or so for Raise Dead with a 6cha skills rez clickie (for rezing with penalties) and an epic Big Top

[Diyon]

No kidding.



So what you are saying is that a class that already has to use extra rings to get reasonable DPS and move things around to other item slots to be "equal" now has to accomodate a charisma item as well to make a mildly useful PrE benefit even work? While the devs are at it why don't they add another ability that is int based. that way, all the stats will be required. then we can have a class that has good dps, good ac, good saves, good special abilities, with nothing great. Perfect. We monks will be the ultimate level 6 and below solo class. thank goodness there is a lvl 6 raid for us.

I'm not sure you read what I said right. With the stats I listed, you can get a DC39 on kukan-do, one less than stunning fist and its also ranged and vs will, with only a base charisma of 8 and NO CHA ITEM. So, you don't need one for this ability to work effectively. Just look at the numbers for the save calculations for the two abilities, you would probably say nothing if kukan-do's save was 10+half monk lvl+wis mod+stunning. That's 10+10+10+10 (provided 30 wis). Kukan-do is 10+FULL monk lvl+cha mod+stunning, which is 10+20-1+10 (provided 8 cha). That difference between half monk lvl and full monk lvl is 10 of the DC at lvl20. Which means you can have an ability difference of 20 stat points between wisdom and charisma and you get the same DC. (the dance finisher doesn't get this clearance since you can't get an item to raise the dc nonstatwise)

[NXPlasmid]

My monk with a starting 8 charisma has 18 charisma. If I wasn't lazy i could get 22

8 starting + 3 tome + 6 item + 1 Litany = 18 + 2 exceptional (ToD ring) + 2 Yugoloth potion = 22

the +2 exceptional is only really viable if you are doing it for UMD, too much DPS loss for combat from losing unarmed +1d6 or +2d6 and the +2 damage from set

Edit: forgot to mention WHY i actually have charisma on my monk:

UMD for Raise Dead scrolls and others, currently 80% or so for Raise Dead with a 6cha skills rez clickie (for rezing with penalties) and an epic Big Top

just an observation, you could have an awesome monk if you devoted all those resources to DPS and AC rather than dance and UMD to use res scrolls. With that kind of time investment you could craft half a dozen GS res clickies, get a couple cleansing items and have every guard effect in the game...

[NXPlasmid]

I'm not sure you read what I said right. With the stats I listed, you can get a DC39 on kukan-do, one less than stunning fist and its also ranged and vs will, with only a base charisma of 8 and NO CHA ITEM. So, you don't need one for this ability to work effectively. Just look at the numbers for the save calculations for the two abilities, you would probably say nothing if kukan-do's save was 10+half monk lvl+wis mod+stunning. That's 10+10+10+10 (provided 30 wis). Kukan-do is 10+FULL monk lvl+cha mod+stunning, which is 10+20-1+10 (provided 8 cha). That difference between half monk lvl and full monk lvl is 10 of the DC at lvl20. Which means you can have an ability difference of 20 stat points between wisdom and charisma and you get the same DC.

I understand that the devs added a fudge factor to the dependence on charisma for the use of the dancing finishing move and of course you are correct that you can use your dump stat modifier+fudge factor to get a good DC. That still highlights for me the disconnect between PnP esthetics employed in game design versus the actual DDO game mechanics and the fact that the second should ALWAYS trump the first.

[TheIvanovFamily]

just an observation, you could have an awesome monk if you devoted all those resources to DPS and AC rather than dance and UMD to use res scrolls. With that kind of time investment you could craft half a dozen GS res clickies, get a couple cleansing items and have every guard effect in the game...

I was breaking 500dps when I was still a light monk pre-u5
Points put into UMD cost no DPS
Gearswaps for UMD gear costs no DPS
The only thing I need for dancing mobs is my hat, which would be a minos if I wasn't dancing things, and thus costs no DPS

punch things punch things punch things punch things punch things
click hat, click necklace, click cloak, click goggles-> click rez scroll
click hat, click necklace, click cloak, click goggles-> punch things some more

[Junts]

considering that the earth+wind+fire finisher dc is the same as the kukan-do dc, theres some decent reason to at least eat a tome and wear a 6 cha item somewhere on a monk, as getting into the mid-30s will save dc is enough to land the dance finisher a lot to, and it is quite useful already as a way to deal with foes that are immune to stunning.

[sephiroth1084]

And that might be a concern, but to me isn't a major issue. Cold Iron comes (perhaps) a little late to bypass render DR, but it works well enough at 12 (the way I level, obviously other may be different) And smite adds a little damage that will be nice against undead, if hardly game changing or even necessary.

Honestly I find it easy enough to hit 12 on a light monk fairly quickly, and I think I'd argue that if the major benefits only kick in around 18, that's not an issue as you'll probably spend more time 18+ than you will 1-17.

The question isn't whether the abilities are ok, but whether they are strong enough to warrant bothering with the PrE (and light monks in general), and whether they are worth using. Saying that it doesn't matter that the PrE does next to nothing for its first, or even second, rank, proves that it is in need of some adjustments.

Interesting post, but still the fact of the matter is this has a wider selection of enemies than KoTc (which you also, though barely, touched on in OP), and therefore has a large chance of getting people saying that it is enough of a selection.

That is a separate issue, and one which A_D has posted on previously. Just because the KotC bonuses are too narrow, doesn't mean that the narrow bonuses Shintao provides are any less in need of being fixed.

IMO, the Shintao AC bonus should be changed to the same type as the paladin's AC aura and reduced to +3 total, in order to both make it more useful for the monk itself, and for the group if a paladin isn't around.

[Odin's_Hugin]

This thread made me realize something. No matter what, people will always complain about things. Sometimes it's because it decreases their envisioned dps, sometimes because new abilites arent as miraculous as they've envisioned, sometimes it's because farming quests takes too long, sometimes it's because most good stuff comes from Payed quests which they cant pay, sometimes it's because they'll have to spend TP to change their builds, sometimes it's because they want multiclasses to have more uberness and sinergy, sometimes it's because they feel like they're been passing behind by some other classes, sometimes it's because they dont shout or sing as they thought they should, sometimes it's because they dont dress as they think they should, sometimes...

People will never stop complaining non-stop, about every minor flaws they see in the game.

I really feel for the Devs.

[Angelus_dead]

This thread made me realize something.

Really. This thread? Have you been paying attention to 31 other threads around here on a certain other monk topic?

[Angelus_dead]

So it turns out that with the improved Kukan-do DC, a Shintao monk is better at stealth missions than a Ninja. (Once you get to the high levels, of course). Kukan-do does not break stealth in any way, making it a safe and easy way to neutralize sentries in places like Iron Maw or Frame Work.

Ninja gets the Invisibility power, which is handy for stealthing through places faster, but a Shintao can replicate that with a bunch of clickies.

Note that it really doesn't make sense that you can "meet someone's gaze" while still remaining hidden. This is probably a bug, but even if fixed Kukan-do is still a good way to catch sentries.

[Wrendd]

This thread made me realize something. No matter what, people will always complain about things. Sometimes it's because it decreases their envisioned dps, sometimes because new abilites arent as miraculous as they've envisioned, sometimes it's because farming quests takes too long, sometimes it's because most good stuff comes from Payed quests which they cant pay, sometimes it's because they'll have to spend TP to change their builds, sometimes it's because they want multiclasses to have more uberness and sinergy, sometimes it's because they feel like they're been passing behind by some other classes, sometimes it's because they dont shout or sing as they thought they should, sometimes it's because they dont dress as they think they should, sometimes...

People will never stop complaining non-stop, about every minor flaws they see in the game.

I really feel for the Devs.

I do not see this thread as a "full on complaint". This is much more of a "constructive criticism" thread. And is absolutely appropriate for this forum. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and right now monks are squeaky.

The devs have been very active in the forums recently (to the devs: thank you for this) and are receptive to suggestions on "balancing" the proposed changes to most of what they have planned for U7. If A_D can get some attention to the Shintao PrE then that is a good thing. WHether or not the devs will agree with him is another matter. I think A_D has made some good points and made some reasonable suggestions. The discussion here has been pretty decent as well.

With their increased presence on the forums, their willingness to change things before U7 goes live and their hard work on everything that goes into DDO the devs have been encouraging this type of thread, and it is a good thing that they are. I do not "feel sorry for the devs", they are acting like game develpoers SHOULD act, and I am very happy that they are. More than anything, the increased dev responses to questions/concerns of the player base has made me have a much better feeling for the continued health of DDO as a whole.

I think expanding "Tainted" to include the mobs that A_D has suggested is a good idea. It fits thematicly, expands the usefulness of the Shintao monk a bit but is not "painting with too broad a brush". I would also like to see the Bonus to AC against taint be reduced to 2/3/4 but have it stack with existing protections (maybe make it untyped bonus?). Allowing the Smite to work against all evil with an additional bonus against taint is also a good idea, but I am not sure about the programming required, it may be more difficult than we think it would be.

[Mister_Peace]

Good post.

Eyes of Stone: ... a freaky combo of a human and ten snakes with elemental transmutation powers doesn't qualify as tainted enough.

Medusa are monstrous humanoids, so pretty much the same as sahuagin. Just because something looks chimeric doesn't mean it's unnatural.

[redgod]

As an endgame dark monk player who does mostly Epic quests and raids these days (aka, not many tainted mobs), Shintao is basically a bunch of enhancements and feats for a ranged stun with a poor stat mod (charisma), a long timer (15 seconds), and a single save/fail attempt (vs 80% chance of 2 save/fail attempts for Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow).

That's a lot of trouble for another stun with a quarter or less of the effectiveness of Stunning Fist, which I already have. It's not overly necessary with a 6 second recharge stun, as I will be most likely trying to kill my currently stunned target before it wears off instead of wasting the stun attempt and switching targets to stun a different mob. If I need multi CC I have dance fist and dark charm for no build cost.

-If I want to bypass DR easier, and for some reason don't have Devouts yet, I'll just go farm the handwraps.
-If for some reason I have some fancy Holy or Vicious Greater Evil Outsider Bane handwraps that make Shintao a silly damage advantage, then I am most likely the luckiest loot puller in the world, or an established enough character that I don't care about a DPS advantage against one type of raid boss to bother to base my whole character build around it.
-Even with a weaker ToD, dark still offers 3d6 sneak damage, 25% incorp/invis on command, and fancy fast sneaking.

Originally I was excited about the extra stuns and CC in Shintao. However, I then thought of what I would use by dropping dark, and the fact that only one of those abilities would work on most mobs.

My final thoughts? I stopped playing my paladin because KOTC was annoying when you weren't in specific quests. I'm not going to turn my monk into a KOTC repeat where I can be awesome one on quest and lame in the next one.

well your points are well put but (for example) on my new wisdom build shintao monk at level 19 while wearing my stunning 10 hw my kuan-do dc was 39 (would be 40 at 20) and i had 10 cha (8 base+2tome) no stat bonus no cha item.
10+monk level+cha mod+hw stun modifier and it wasn't bad. It hit effectivly everywere i used it. and for those fights were i wanted to reliy a little more on it i would suggest a +6 cha item to swap in situationally such as on epics for another +3

the 15 sec timer i found to be pretty forgiving as it did not cross with stunning fist i would stun casters at range get in close stunning fist anything else and mop up. i found it nice, and in my experience a 40-43 is ok at epic level not 100% but imo 80% at least but decent and effictive.

dark pathers have charm strike and fod but to be a light path the extra cc i liked and dance strike is cha mod as well and has no hw modifer to boost it

i had a lot of fun with jade strike in the devils batlelfield and merida mixed with dismissal strike stun and kuan-do i hardly got touched. 1 hitting orthons, devils, elementels for a flesh to stone effect. it was nice cc in genesis point and bastian of power, new invasion and sins. i would jade strike em and move on the rest of party beat them down at leasure.

as far as dps goes dark path is higher still, but that is how it is designed however with silver dr the ability to put away the metaline and strap on some better boss beaters is nice.
i have a set of +5 holy of pure good they have force ritual and icy burst on them and with the new boosts to shintao i have noticed a boost to my dps in boss fights i also have anartic burst with force ritual and icyburst that work very well.

i would make a point about epics they have all been lower level quests that have gotten a big boost but their climbing the level ladder and in higher level quests have a higher number of tainted creatures im thinking about house j,and k. they have massive ammounts of enemies that are concidered tainted or undead.

so i wouldent dismiss the changes as a repete of KOTC they are effective accross the board and i would make the change on lamannia were it wont cost you anything and give it a real shot at endgame content.

the difference betwene light and dark is dps vs cc and buffs dark path debuffing is pretty pointless but tod and sneak attack is pretty nasty even with nerf, light path party buffs are ok dps party boost and grasp of the earth dragon are very nice. smites need help but they do count for light and help with heals. it all comes down to play style

[redgod]

Here's a short Kukan vs Dancefist summary:
1) Kukan has a 10dc advantage, but only fires once. Dancefist has 80% of 2x and 10% of doublestrike if in wind4.
2) Kukan has a 15 second downtime, while Dancefist can be prepped and fired every 4 or so seconds for as long as you have Ki.
3) I do not know Kukan's Ki cost, and Dancefist Ki cost varies by which strikes you use to prep it.
4) Kukan is ranged, Dancefist is not.

-Kukan has a huge (10) DC advantage that is somewhat mitigated by Dancefist having a high chance of firing multiple times.
-Dancefist can be activated roughly 4 times for every one activation Kukan, with an I-made-it-up average of firing about 6 times as often as Kukan (80% offhand + 10% doublestrike = almost 2 per activation, assume one time it only fires once and the other is a miss).
-Dancefist requires a to-hit check while Kukan does not.
-Kukan can be used with Dancefist, because Dancefist only requires 20 monk.
.

your not taking in the range i can stand off use kuan-do if it misses i still have 0 agro, wait and shoot again if dance fails im in a fight. also they compliment each other and act togeather very well. and the biggest reason kuan-do rocks is ........ are you ready you all know it.

dumbazz non communicating pug ranger/caster keeps kiting a kill that needs to go down to progress the quest and dps cant get a hit in to pull agro (enter monk stage left) monk targets moving enemy hits kuan-do stuns moving target and party beats it down before black listing and squelching said noob.

NOW thats a way to help the party.

[Coldin]

I'm actually mostly fine with Shintao in it's current implementation, save a few things.

None of the abilities function properly with TWF. That's really a deal breaker for me, since I'll need to do some respeccing to take advantage of Shintao on live.

More clicky attacks. I can only really keep track of a few clicky attacks at once. Monk already had quite a few to use and Shintao adds another 5 to keep track of. All the abilities are cool, but it would be nice if at least one is passive.

Everything is focused around tainted creatures. That wouldn't be so bad if tainted creatures covered a very broad range of monsters, but it's more limited than one might think. This is amplified because some monsters that should be classified as tainted aren't (See Tieflings and various fiendish creatures). I wouldn't mind seeing these abilities grant smaller bonuses against non-tainted creatures. For example, Jade Strike applying the 10% damage vulnerability, but nothing else.

Though really, my main issue with it is that it doesn't work properly with TWF. It's sad that it won't be fixed before Update 7 goes live.

[Angelus_dead]

None of the abilities function properly with TWF. That's really a deal breaker for me, since I'll need to do some respeccing to take advantage of Shintao on live.

Dismiss Strike seems to work with TWF, and maybe Jade does too, but Smite is the really important one. The failure of TWF Smite is a big part of the reason why Shintao gives minimal benefit against tainted monsters at levels 6-17. As I described above, losing your offhand attack means that Smite is only a minor DPS increase above a regular attack.

More clicky attacks. I can only really keep track of a few clicky attacks at once.

Yes, some people can keep track but that doesn't mean it was good to add so many. That's why I suggested that the Smite->JadeStrike->JadeTomb series of special attacks merge in the abilities of the previous one at each tier, so you can use one button for those effects, instead of adding a new button each time.

some monsters that should be classified as tainted aren't (See Tieflings and various fiendish creatures).

Tieflings and fiendish creatures are treated as Tainted for the purposes of Shintao abilities on Lamania. They qualify as Outsiders or Extraplanar, respectively.

However, things like Inspired should be Tainted... just cast True Sight and you'll see the Evil Outsider right inside his brain.

[Coldin]

Tieflings and fiendish creatures are treated as Tainted for the purposes of Shintao abilities on Lamania. They qualify as Outsiders or Extraplanar, respectively.

You sure? I was over on Lamannia after the patch, and while it worked fine in the Vale, in Shavarath they didn't count as tainted creatures.

[Drfirewater79]

Ninja: Non-fort monsters to hit? Large majority.
Shintao: Tainted monsters to hit? Common, but far short of a dominant majority.

There are a large majority of non fort monsters?

I guess since you get the power at lvl 9 your right .. .but all of end game is high fort ... the thing that makes the new TOD changes stupid is the fact that you LOSE dps as you level and attempted higher hp mobs.

Shintao while i agree is very useless vs every mob that isnt tainted ... almost all the end game is ... and it makes some end game stuff really fun and easy.


How do we fix these two issues?

with Ninja Spy
increase the DC of ToD or make the ninja spy set bonus add 5-10 to the ToD DC

with Shintao
add an attack to mark a target as tainted ... this would make the shintao powers useful everywhere ... but make them easier to use vs naturally tainted creatures.

[Wrendd]

Though really, my main issue with it is that it doesn't work properly with TWF. It's sad that it won't be fixed before Update 7 goes live.

Where was that said? I do not necessarily doubt you, but I would like confirmation.

It is pretty obviously a bug and should work like ToD and have a chance for multiple procs.