The change to ToD is fine.

[Mobeius]

Again if you are against the ToD change you are some amazing hero for those that support the change in favor of balance you are the anti-christ.



Yes I have made mistakes on the forums, but who hasnt? I at least admit my mistakes on things and defiantely dont try to pass off my mistakes as someone elses to save face.

[Angelus_dead]

How do you figure Ninja1+2 is supeirior to teh entire Shintao line? (If I'm understanding this)

Because Ninja is pretty good and Shintao is pretty weak.

Ninja gives you a lot more damage against the large majority of enemies, and a lot of defense against attacks. Shintao gives you a damage boost against some kinds of boss enemies.

[Trillea]

OK, as I understand it (and I haven't played on lammania to test)

it went from 500 pts of untyped for 50 ki that works on anything to

500 pts of neg (which heals undead) (oh, and doesn't work on deathwarded mobs) with a fort save for half for 50 ki.
Normally you would be right but undead are instead just immune to the new ToD.

At the high end undead are a rarity once you get past the Abbot so that's 'meh' after you finish the Abbot, while in the orchard though gotta be careful or you could end up healing things inadvertently.

Death Ward I see as more of an issue at the high end, I recall a number of the quests where as you approach a group of mobs a caster will throw a buff or three and one of them will likely be death ward.
Correct. This is the only problem I see on this, as in epic the death ward cannot be dispelled even with Mordenkainen's DJ.

Straight up the damage was reduced and it's overall effectiveness reduced, did the cost go down? Is the recycle reduced?
No to both.

Am I whining? No, I'll deal, just like I dealt with the TWF nerf. I'm just saying that people saying 'stop whining, you were too powerful' need to consider the other ramifications of the change. This wasn't a simple damage reduction (which likely would have gone over fairly quietly) This was a full blown game change. One whole class of monsters were removed from the list of things ToD worked on and a simple spell negates the ability outright.
Nothing should work on everything equally, which is why I agree with this change the same as I agreed with the earlier change from Transmuting to Metalline.

I can see it now 'LFM for Litany flagging, dark monks need not apply'
Won't happen IMO.

*dons the asbestos overalls*

My comments in green.

[Aaxeyu]

I can see it now 'LFM for Litany flagging, dark monks need not apply'

They will still be top DPS class against undead, but I guess you didn't consider that...

[Mobeius]

OK, as I understand it (and I haven't played on lammania to test)

it went from 500 pts of untyped for 50 ki that works on anything to

500 pts of neg (which heals undead) (oh, and doesn't work on deathwarded mobs) with a fort save for half for 50 ki.

At the high end undead are a rarity once you get past the Abbot so that's 'meh' after you finish the Abbot, while in the orchard though gotta be careful or you could end up healing things inadvertently.

Death Ward I see as more of an issue at the high end, I recall a number of the quests where as you approach a group of mobs a caster will throw a buff or three and one of them will likely be death ward.

Straight up the damage was reduced and it's overall effectiveness reduced, did the cost go down? Is the recycle reduced?

Am I whining? No, I'll deal, just like I dealt with the TWF nerf. I'm just saying that people saying 'stop whining, you were too powerful' need to consider the other ramifications of the change. This wasn't a simple damage reduction (which likely would have gone over fairly quietly) This was a full blown game change. One whole class of monsters were removed from the list of things ToD worked on and a simple spell negates the ability outright.

I can see it now 'LFM for Litany flagging, dark monks need not apply'

*dons the asbestos overalls*

Correction..

It went from as SINGLE 500 pt untyped damage attack with no save, to x2 and x3 proc 500 attack (meaning 1000 to 1500 damage) and then the additional bug of it proccing x4 and x5 in windstance.

Litny Flagging is your arguement for no monks? Monks do superior damage with their fists alone already against constructs, Undead and Elementals. Add some Greater Bane handwraps with Holy or Acid or Force, etc... and you rock against those same targets. Not to mention inherent SR that cant be dispelled, for those that are pure, Dr 10 Epic, Self Healing (yes even dark monks have that), Great Saves, Full BAB, stunning fists, hot swap handwraps easily, not having to keep 2 weapons for every situation to TWF and not to mention full strength bonuses with the off hand instead of half damage.

Now add 25% Incorpealability and and aditional SA damage for Ninja PRE

[Khurse]

Because Ninja is pretty good and Shintao is pretty weak.

Ninja gives you a lot more damage against the large majority of enemies, and a lot of defense against attacks. Shintao gives you a damage boost against some kinds of boss enemies.

Yeah, you get the boost against evil outsiders and undead...uhmm how many bosses do you want?
Also the Shintao ability to bypass silver lets you use wraps that can make up for at least 2d6 of the sneak attack damage that ninja gives you against silver/good or cold iron/good DR mobs.

[Mobeius]

Yeah, you get the boost against eveil outsiders and undead...uhmm how many bosses do you want?
Also teh Shintao ability to bypass silver lets you use wraps that can make up for at least 2d6 of the sneak attack damage theat ninja gives you. against silver/good or cold iron/good mobs.

Again apologies for th grammar, Ill fix the post up later. (Or learn to type on the phone)

and Ninja's can get Metalline HW to make up for the DR bypassing that Shintao gets.

Other than going epic, there is only one item in game that can make up for for the Ninja's Shadow Fade of 25% Incorpealability. Wretched Twilight and that just drops like candy in the abbott raid as we all know.

[Angelus_dead]

and Ninja's can get Metalline HW to make up for the DR bypassing that Shintao gets.

The convenience of (eventually) not needing metal wraps is a plus for Shintao, but Ninja's sneak attack almost makes up for it.

Other than going epic, there is only one item in game that can make up for for the Ninja's Shadow Fade of 25% Incorpealability. Wretched Twilight and that just drops like candy in the abbott raid as we all know.

No, Wretched Twilight is exactly like wearing a Blur spell.

[Mobeius]

The convenience of (eventually) not needing metal wraps is a plus for Shintao, but Ninja's sneak attack almost makes up for it.


No, Wretched Twilight is exactly like wearing a Blur spell.

Ahhh my bad, someone said it had ghostly on it and that was Incorpealability.

So that means only epic items can gain Incorpealability.


Ninja III will more than likely have more SA damage added is why I said that.

[SINIBYTE]

I'm pretty sure people are just really fed up with your false assumptions. You have made the forums painfully frustrating for me to read over the past week. Every other post is from you. As if that's not bad enough, your 'good post' to 'bad post' ratio is just way in favor of 'bad post'.

What are your 'bad posts'?

* Absurd assumptions to dismiss those that disagree with you, like what I quoted above. These continue even after trying to educate you multiple times.

* Gross misunderstandings of how any other Monk plays aside from your own. These also continue even after trying to educate you multiple times.

* Whining about SINIBYTE

* Whining about Neg Rep

* Gloating, schadenfreude, and condescension

People are just fed up, man. Rather than accept their criticism (via the Neg Rep system), you'd rather fancy yourself some sort of pro-ToD-change martyr. Gladly taking their spears to your side as you nobly sacrifice your greenis for the cause.

No, man. You're just a **** most of the time. You have thoughtful, lucid, fair thoughts, but they're overshadowed by the nonsense.

Have a nice day.

Pretty much. What a worthy cause for martyrdom too. The only thoughtful, lucid, fair thoughts are when he simply repeats what someone else has said. The rest is just complaining about how much neg rep he has or apologizing for making yet another "mistake"... I've given up on educating him, it's like arguing with that Easter Island Head from a Night at the Museum. If only the forums had a squelch option...

[Trillea]

If only the forums had a squelch option...

They do - the ignore list.

[Mobeius]

I just LOVE the fact since I am the opposition they always choose to list personal attacks directed at me. I am human, I do make mistakes, I admit them, unlike others that think they are infalable and comepltely perfect in every aspect of life.

Again, those that are against change, AMAZING MAN!

Those that support the change, Dumb and Dumber

[Zorack00]

I'm pretty sure people are just really fed up with your false assumptions. You have made the forums painfully frustrating for me to read over the past week. Every other post is from you. As if that's not bad enough, your 'good post' to 'bad post' ratio is just way in favor of 'bad post'.

What are your 'bad posts'?

* Absurd assumptions to dismiss those that disagree with you, like what I quoted above. These continue even after trying to educate you multiple times.

* Gross misunderstandings of how any other Monk plays aside from your own. These also continue even after trying to educate you multiple times.

* Whining about SINIBYTE

* Whining about Neg Rep

* Gloating, schadenfreude, and condescension

People are just fed up, man. Rather than accept their criticism (via the Neg Rep system), you'd rather fancy yourself some sort of pro-ToD-change martyr. Gladly taking their spears to your side as you nobly sacrifice your greenis for the cause.

No, man. You're just a **** most of the time. You have thoughtful, lucid, fair thoughts, but they're overshadowed by the nonsense.

Have a nice day.

I just LOVE the fact since I am the opposition they always choose to list personal attacks directed at me. I am human, I do make mistakes, I admit them, unlike others that think they are infalable and comepltely perfect in every aspect of life.

Again, those that are against change, AMAZING MAN!

Those that support the change, Dumb and Dumber

I love you all.

[Khurse]

You make it sound like light side buffs are uber awesome and no one should leave home with out them. They are decent for pre buffing, assuming you have the KI, roughly about 30 Ki for each buff which lasts 60 seconds. The casting animations and attacks for the finishers are not useful, especially in raid fights. now if they increase the duration and ditched the i dream og Jeanie animation then might have a little more water to go with.

Ninja Spy III will probably be as powerful if not more powerful than Shinatao III PRE.

Awesome, I keep getting told getting 90 KI for Touch of Despair + Touch of Death isn't a problem, but a light monk can't find 30 in combat?
They're useful throughout combat, which is an order of magnitude above what the Dark line debuffs are.

Shintao 1-3 gives you 3 holds against mobs(on with an almost line of sight range), and (perhaps in my opinion only) one of the better boss debuffs in the game. (With of course a save against it).
The smite ability, while not in prenerfs TOD's class does 200+ damage on a held mob and can hit more than one time. (I don't know if it has the same ability/percentages to doublestrike as TOD, but it is available)

And, as mentioned, while Dark Monks are forced to use metalline wraps to bypass Boss DR, Shintao can substitute holy/vicious/etc for an extra 2d6 damage. This takes care of 2 of the 3d6 that Ninja 2 gives.

Again, we don't know what Ninja 3 will bring, we have no idea what the devs are planning for it. (Or for Henshin Mystic at that) If it's some sort of super massive damage attack that can be used on anything and bonus sneak attack dice, I'd say it's probably better. If it's some sort of mass invisibility and another sneak attack die, it will be worse.

And please note, I'm not saying the Shintao needs to be nerfed, I think it's (finally) a well thought out line that is well balanced and adds quite a bit to the class.

[Goldenadult79]

The convenience of (eventually) not needing metal wraps is a plus for Shintao, but Ninja's sneak attack almost makes up for it.

Quick note:

The primary Jade Strike debuff portion ("take 10% more physical damage, have 25%less fortification") works on all tainted creatures that fail their save. Including tainted raid bosses.

The secondary Tomb of Jade proc will not function on raid bosses. Unless specifically scripted into the encounter, there are no ways to stun or otherwise incapacitate a raid boss.

More physical damage and 25% less fort add up to a much larger number that 2d6 sneak.

Comparing the 2d6 sneak attack + water walk + invis
to
Bypassing All DR + increasing all physical damage from every source + 25% less fort(aloowing crits, even on uncrittable raid mobs) + also holding the mobs and putting them into auto crit


saying that in any way compares to the current version of ninja spy is absurd.

[Angelus_dead]

More physical damage and 25% less fort add up to a much larger number that 2d6 sneak.

Where are you getting 2d6 sneak from?

Anyway, the 10% physical damage is only useful:
If the creature is actually Tainted.
If the creature stays alive long enough to get debuffs on it.
If the creature fails saving throws (from a path that otherwise wouldn't need high wis)
If you have a large group.
If your group members have high physical damage.
If nobody else had already put Jade Strike on that creature.

[Goldenadult79]

Where are you getting 2d6 sneak from?

Anyway, the 10% physical damage is only useful:
If the creature is actually Tainted.
If the creature stays alive long enough to get debuffs on it.
If the creature fails saving throws (from a path that otherwise wouldn't need high wis)
If you have a large group.
If your group members have high physical damage.
If nobody else had already put Jade Strike on that creature.

As if those things were such difficulties. With 25% less fort that means you could crit an uncrittable raid boss for 100, 10% adding another 10 for a 110. Keep in mind, this is just 1 crit from 1 player. Getting a guaranteed 10 damge per 100 point crit is going to add up to way more that even 3d6 damage would. Take into account the attack rate of 100 swings per minute for most melee's and 132 for a monk.

Imagine in a raid, 12 people getting 10% more damage and being able to crit for even more damage is a pretty big number .

[BlackRage]

It's still alot of damage.

The biggest complaint is that it is a double nerf: the introduction of a save AND the change to Neg Energy both impact DPS and reduce ToD effectiveness.

Either change would have been acceptable, but once again the Devs have shown that they have no idea how to achieve game balance.

Turbine continually fails to take into account unintentional consequences. How they constantly make this failing I simply do not know, but ToD was very well balanced until the "TWF nerf' - after that stupidity (that clearly has not solved the lag despite Tyrant's whines to the contrary) ToD was significantly buffed.

So no rather than fixing TWF or the under lying issue they have directly nerf'd ToD

Sure it still does more damage than a base Monk, but it is down significantly from even pre-TWF nerf levels. Obviously it hurts some builds (Monk multis & WIS dumps) more than others, but even a pure WIS Monk is going to land it as a minimum 5% less.

Ignoring the save even, there are now a large portion of enemies which are simply immune. For someone that has lambasted general immunities in the past this should be easy to understand: against certainly mobs ToD now does ZERO damage (or worse in theory NEGATIVE damage )

A nerf is fine - but this double nerf goes too far. Either a change to Negative Energy _OR_ introduction of a save would have been MORE than sufficient for a problem Turbine created in the first place!

[Trillea]

Where are you getting 2d6 sneak from?

Anyway, the 10% physical damage is only useful:
If the creature is actually Tainted. - Like most raid bosses
If the creature stays alive long enough to get debuffs on it. - Like most raid bosses
If the creature fails saving throws (from a path that otherwise wouldn't need high wis) - Shintao is likely to have high WIS to get Stunning Fist DC up anyway. This ability lets that WIS not go to waste on raid bosses.
If you have a large group. - Like most raids
If your group members have high physical damage. - Like most raids
If nobody else had already put Jade Strike on that creature. - True

Responses in green.

[kernal42]

Correct. This is the only problem I see on this, as in epic the death ward cannot be dispelled even with Mordenkainen's DJ.

Fortunately, that's not a problem.
Epic ward is not the same as death ward.
Epic ward, among its varied effects, stops instakills; it does not however grant immunity to negative energy.

Cheers,
Kernal