To all the people complaining about ToD

[elraido]

Sorry but I was running EPIC on the LIVE servers so the ToD change doesn't affect me yet. My FULL ToDs were nothing compared to the sp pool.

So what was your point?

But yes I guess if you dump wis then after U7 ToD will be even less effective.

Don't make a flavor of the month build and expect it to be around forever with out needing changes....

[BlackSteel]

It's not like dark monks will end up with uselss DPS from this change, it's like 5-6% less DPS from what I gather from the calcs I've seen posted on the matter (not calculated it myself, so don't quote me on that number ).

true enough, but the kicker is the AP investment. Monks have a ton of other really nice enhancements that could be taken for DPS gains as well. Personally on my build, I'd love to fit in GM wind for when I'm in stun bot mode and getting more Ki already than I can possibly spend, or simply just for more strikes other than earth to spam (I dont typically bother with fire strikes due to resistances). Then you have the awesome void line. Heck or even more healing amp. I'm sure some of this is b/c I have 12 Ap tied up in WF tactics, but I like my 43 stun DC (and now ToD) with a mediocre wis score.

[KoboldKiller]

Don't make a flavor of the month build and expect it to be around forever with out needing changes....

Which has nothing to do with the fact I was indicating through PRACTICAL experience that all the cries of overpowered are way off base when you compare ToD to the game.

So what else you got?

[dkyle]

Don't make a flavor of the month build and expect it to be around forever with out needing changes....

Good to know that all Dark Monks are flavor of the month. Wish I'd known. Because all Dark Monks are getting hit hard by this, not just WIS-dumping ones. Any reduction to our already sub-optimal DPS is unacceptable.

[elraido]

Which has nothing to do with the fact I was indicating through PRACTICAL experience that all the cries of overpowered are way off base when you compare ToD to the game.

So what else you got?

Hendriks says his monk is perfectly viable in the changes...I believe him 100%. I group with his monk ALL THE TIME in epic. It is built properly...he is happy with the changes. He actually likes them. If someone thought wisdom should be a dump stat, should have realized something would change. It is like back when people were using char on paladins as a dump stat......

[KoboldKiller]

Hendriks says his monk is perfectly viable in the changes...I believe him 100%. I group with his monk ALL THE TIME in epic. It is built properly...he is happy with the changes. He actually likes them. If someone thought wisdom should be a dump stat, should have realized something would change. It is like back when people were using char on paladins as a dump stat......

I'm getting really tired of seeing this.

Maybe you should put out a guide explaining how every class should be built since you seem to know what is PROPER.

As for Hendriks good for him.

My point is still valid. Regardless of what you are all claiming ToD is in no way shape or form overpowered against the game. That is a simple fact.

[dkyle]

It is like back when people were using char on paladins as a dump stat......

Which they fixed by adding something to Paladins to make them want CHA. The ToD "fix" is like if they nerfed Smite by added a CHA-based save for half. They didn't do that. Instead, they took a joke of a class, and made it good at something.

If they added WIS-based bonus damage to ToD, or added a new WIS-based feature to Dark Monks, I'd be happy with it. But nerfing ToD, then having WIS merely mitigate the decrease in DPS, is the wrong way to do it. They're taking an already marginal class/path, and making it worse.

[elraido]

I'm getting really tired of seeing this.

Maybe you should put out a guide explaining how every class should be built since you seem to know what is PROPER.

As for Hendriks good for him.

My point is still valid. Regardless of what you are all claiming ToD is in no way shape or form overpowered against the game. That is a simple fact.

All I hear from the people complaining about the change is that their builds are no longer valid...I won't be doing any DPS now...all dark monks are gimps. You gimped yourself when you made your monk the way he was. If the supposed 6% drop in dps really makes your build THAT bad, then you didn't know what you were doing to begin with.

Your arguement is emtional based. You keep pointing out that ToD is not over powered. People keep showing you that it is and why. You sit there with your fingers in your ears going no no no no no. I can make any claim I want...just like you do by saying that it isn't over powered. Rangers having the ability to keep multishot on all the time. That wasn't over powered. Ranged DPS was so far down the list, a monk did waaaaaaaaaaay more damage. Why did they have to nerf the mulitshot? It wasn't broken. I liked the way it worked. I can then bring up all sorts of charts showing that mulitshot with a timer etc produces so much less dps than a frenzied barbarian that it just isn't fair. The game is all about checks and balances. Plain and simple. Give something up to get something. Once that goes out the window, something becomes over powered. An attack that can do 500 points of damage (reguardless of build AND GEAR) basically at a whim, with out a save, with out modifiers etc is broken. The reason why ranged DPS is lower is because you are away from your target when you attack, so you don't get hit as often. That is the trade off...what is trade off with an ability that lets you dump a main stat for that class and have ZERO implications on the build?

[elraido]

Which they fixed by adding something to Paladins to make them want CHA. The ToD "fix" is like if they nerfed Smite by added a CHA-based save for half. They didn't do that. Instead, they took a joke of a class, and made it good at something.

If they added WIS-based bonus damage to ToD, or added a new WIS-based feature to Dark Monks, I'd be happy with it. But nerfing ToD, then having WIS merely mitigate the decrease in DPS, is the wrong way to do it. They're taking an already marginal class/path, and making it worse.

The thing with your smite issue, is that smites already need to hit on a crit for it to produce any real damage numbers. ToD had no effect like that in place. It is the same as hitting a crit exhaulted smite every 15 seconds. And I have said this before....there are NO OTHER ABILITIES in the game period where there are no saves, no ability modifiers, no needing a crit, where it worked on every single thing in the game.

And if it is a marginal class/path, then why are there so many of them running around. I can't throw a dead cat about and not hit one in game.

[dkyle]

If the supposed 6% drop in dps really makes your build THAT bad, then you didn't know what you were doing to begin with.

6% less DPS is significant. For a class/path with nothing to offer but DPS, gimping its DPS means gimping the class/path. You think there wouldn't be a much larger outcry if Tempest 2 and 3's offhand proc and doublestrike bonuses were removed from the game? Those PrEs together represent about a 6% boost to melee Rangers' DPS.

Your arguement is emtional based. You keep pointing out that ToD is not over powered. People keep showing you that it is and why. [... ] An attack that can do 500 points of damage (reguardless of build AND GEAR) basically at a whim, with out a save, with out modifiers etc is broken.

I assume the second part is you showing why, because it's the only justification I've seen whatsoever. The simple fact is that ToD is not overpowered, because it doesn't make Dark Monks overpowered. Just as dealing well over 500 damage, no save, at a whim, with polar ray doesn't make casters overpowered. There are other mitigating aspects of both classes. Examining a single ability in a vacuum is ridiculous and pointless.

If Barbarians got a ToD, it would be extremely broken, because it would make Barbarians the be-all-end-all of DPS. ToD on Light Monks post-U7 would be broken, because then Light Monks would get solid personal DPS plus amazing party DPS boosting abilities. ToD on a Dark Monk just makes them solid personal DPS, with nothing else to offer that's theirs alone.

Rangers having the ability to keep multishot on all the time. That wasn't over powered.

It was an obvious bug, and laughably overpowered. It made archers the absolute top DPS. That's an anathema to reasonable game design.

Ranged DPS was so far down the list, a monk did waaaaaaaaaaay more damage.

Ranged DPS could use a boost, but monks are melee. Therefore, they should be compared to melee DPS. Ranged is too fundamentally different for any meaningful comparison.

That is the trade off...what is trade off with an ability that lets you dump a main stat for that class and have ZERO implications on the build?

First, it's not really a trade off. U7 means, Dark Monks do less damage. Period. Not dumping WIS just means losing less damage.

Second, dumping WIS already costs Dark Monks. It means a gimped Stunning Fist, an ability that is superior to Stunning Blow given the same DC. And there is plenty of precedent for dumping a supposedly "main" stat. There are many of CHA-dumping sorcs, CHA/WIS-dumping FvS and Clerics, CHA-dumping Bards, INT-dumping Rogues. They all trade something for something else. Like how Dark Monks can currently trade Stunning Fist for better DPS vs. non-stunnables.

The thing with your smite issue, is that smites already need to hit on a crit for it to produce any real damage numbers. ToD had no effect like that in place. It is the same as hitting a crit exhaulted smite every 15 seconds.

What I think the problem is, is that you only pay attention to large numbers. If it's not a large number on the screen, you ignore it. You see 500, or 1000, and think OMG BROKEN. Never mind that it represents only about 60 DPS at most. Likely less in practice. Rogues SA adds far more.

Smites are a significant boost to burst DPS. And a Paladin spamming smites is highly likely to get a crit within 15 seconds. But I wasn't talking about the specifics of smite. I don't think ToD is anything like a Smite. I simply wanted to show that the nerfs to ToD, making WIS important, are fundamentally different to the changes Palis got to make CHA important. You brought up the comparison, I was saying why its irrelevant.

And if it is a marginal class/path, then why are there so many of them running around. I can't throw a dead cat about and not hit one in game.

That has not been my experience. I still see at most 2 or rarely 3 Monks (and not all Dark, either) in raids with 4 or 5 Barbs/Fighters. I suspect you're seeing an influx of people excited to try out Dark Monks now that they're not a joke. That's why I made mine. I knew I wasn't going to out DPS a Barb where it matters, but I liked being able to try out something different.

[Mobeius]

When are people going to understand the fundamentals of DnD... You have primary Melee and secondary melee, secondary melee is support melee with a bunch of tools. Secondary melee are Monks, Rangers and Rogues.. Period...

[dkyle]

When are people going to understand the fundamentals of DnD... You have primary Melee and secondary melee, secondary melee is support melee with a bunch of tools. Secondary melee are Monks, Rangers and Rogues.. Period...

If you think Rogues are support melee, secondary DPS, you clearly don't understand this game as well as you think you do. I notice you said DnD, not DDO. Guess what, this game isn't 3.5 PnP.

And if Dark Monks had "support" to offer besides DPS, I'd be less irritated. But they don't. They get a bunch of worthless little debuffs, and then ToD.

[elraido]

That has not been my experience. I still see at most 2 or rarely 3 Monks (and not all Dark, either) in raids with 4 or 5 Barbs/Fighters. I suspect you're seeing an influx of people excited to try out Dark Monks now that they're not a joke. That's why I made mine. I knew I wasn't going to out DPS a Barb where it matters, but I liked being able to try out something different.

Maybe it is just my guild, but I have been in raids where we have 5-6 monks in it. It happens all the time. And they are constantly the kill leaders over the fighters/paladins/barbs.

[PopeJual]

When are people going to understand the fundamentals of DnD... You have primary Melee and secondary melee, secondary melee is support melee with a bunch of tools. Secondary melee are Monks, Rangers and Rogues.. Period...

What tools do Dark monks bring to the table?

Also, do you think Paladins are primary or secondary melee? Because they look a whole lot like Rangers to me. Spell buffs, wand healing and self healing through spells if properly set up. Smells like "with a bunch of tools" to me, but they end up doing better DPS against their chosen enemy than any other class (i.e. the bosses of every end game raid except for Epic VoN6).