To all the people complaining about ToD

[KoboldKiller]

Sub optimal with your 431.5 DPS instead of 460? Will most people even notice a real difference, aside from the dark monk himself, and only because he's specifically seeing "250" above the mob's head instead of "500"?

I find it interesting that people continue to overlook the power of perception.

If you perceive an alt, or a race or a class to be suboptimal would you play it?

You can throw out all the numbers you want the perception is all that matters.

People have already voiced their concerns about the new perception the player base will have after this nerf goes live.

If the player base perceives the Dark Monk to now be gimped guess what, they are.

[Mobeius]

I find it interesting that people continue to overlook the power of perception.

If you perceive an alt, or a race or a class to be suboptimal would you play it?

You can throw out all the numbers you want the perception is all that matters.

People have already voiced their concerns about the new perception the player base will have after this nerf goes live.

If the player base perceives the Dark Monk to now be gimped guess what, they are.

Only because dark monks are screaming they are going to be gimped. You're shooting yourself in the foot. Which will bring up a new batch of players that are dark monks that will play the class harder and better to prove they are not gimp.

[Goldenadult79]

That was from a quote before my last response. Honestly, I don't care about mobs etc. They go down fast enough. I want to know where this shrine is for Vision of Destruction, the last two battles in the shroud, epic Velah, or any other high end boss so I can get my smites back. Those battles take longer than the 30 sec to one min it takes a paladin to expend his smites.

what were you saying about not having any smites because the mobs were evil? how did you manage to expend them and be in need of a shrine?
And since you're fighting evil things, are you factoring in all the damage a paladin gets with his holy weapons/ green steel weapons? A thing monks dont actually get?

[elraido]

People have already voiced their concerns about the new perception the player base will have after this nerf goes live.

If the player base perceives the Dark Monk to now be gimped guess what, they are.

And that gets to the point I made at the start. The game won't implode on itself. People need to stop getting all worked up over everything. It will be alright. Every single "nerf" Turbine has done hasn't caused the game to be completely broken, unplayable, stopped people from playing etc. Stop the panicing. Most people I know who have played on Lamania, have said it isn't that large of a deal.

[gurgar78]

I find it interesting that people continue to overlook the power of perception.

If you perceive an alt, or a race or a class to be suboptimal would you play it?

You can throw out all the numbers you want the perception is all that matters.

People have already voiced their concerns about the new perception the player base will have after this nerf goes live.

If the player base perceives the Dark Monk to now be gimped guess what, they are.

No, the perception that they're gimped does not actually make them gimped. It could have the same effect as BEING gimped by making it harder to get groups, but the perception doesn't actually change their relative power.

I'm still not sure how the community that you claim now falsely views the ability as overpowered is suddenly going to now falsely view the class as underpowered because of this change.

Isn't it far more likely that the community would assume dark monks are now balanced?

And in the event that someone actually looks into the numbers, they will see that not much has changed at all.

[elraido]

what were you saying about not having any smites because the mobs were evil? how did you manage to expend them and be in need of a shrine?
And since you're fighting evil things, are you factoring in all the damage a paladin gets with his holy weapons/ green steel weapons? A thing monks dont actually get?

See, that is the whole situation thing about smites that monks don't need to worry about!!!!! There are times when smite won't work because of creatures being neutral etc. Even undead don't take full damage from a crit smite. Vs the abbott, that is sort of a big deal. And we all know there are very few HotD out there....and they are fixing KotC vs Undead this mod. A monk will clearly outshine a paladin in abbott.

[Goldenadult79]

Sub optimal with your 431.5 DPS instead of 460? Will most people even notice a real difference, aside from the dark monk himself, and only because he's specifically seeing "250" above the mob's head instead of "500"?

My comments have nothing to do with being passed over for groups, or nor being viable. Gee where have I heard this before?

You're gonna stop painting all of us with the same brush. Again you think that everyone here is saying monks are useless. Start actually reading. Since everyone is talking about perceptions, I can sum up yours, "all these people are whiners who think they won't be useful". As you ahve illustrated in most of your posts.

its not about being useful, its about a change that the numbers show achieves nothing meaningful. in some cases it might actually make ToD more powerful and do more damage. So what should that tell the people who complain about it being overpowered and unbalancing?

Those people need to see the numbers and ask 2 questions.

1)What balance is lost with the original ToD?
2)What balance is created with the change?

According the numbers even you stated, the answers to those 2 questions are...

1) None.
2) None.
So *** are you arguing that it should be changed?

[Goldenadult79]

See, that is the whole situation thing about smites that monks don't need to worry about!!!!! There are times when smite won't work because of creatures being neutral etc. Even undead don't take full damage from a crit smite. Vs the abbott, that is sort of a big deal. And we all know there are very few HotD out there....and they are fixing KotC vs Undead this mod. A monk will clearly outshine a paladin in abbott.

no, because with this mod, ToD is negative energy. The Abbot is immune to negative energy
A dark monk on the abbott will do zero damage with Touch of Death.

Why do you care what the monk community understands about Paladins? Did you create this thread because you felt bad and wanted sympathy for paladins? Did you create anti-tod whiners thread because paladins lost something?

Can you explain to me, after seeing the number, why it is you think monks should lose damage potential, without mentioning other classes? The chart clearly shows us something: Dark monks are the lowest dps of all the melee dps classes. So why is it, that you think we deserve to lose something under those conditions?

[gurgar78]

My comments have nothing to do with being passed over for groups, or nor being viable. Gee where have I heard this before?

You're gonna stop painting all of us with the same brush. Again you think that everyone here is saying monks are useless. Start actually reading. Since everyone is talking about perceptions, I can sum up yours, "all these people are whiners who think they won't be useful". As you ahve illustrated in most of your posts.

its not about being useful, its about a change that the numbers show achieves nothing meaningful. in some cases it might actually make ToD more powerful and do more damage. So what should that tell the people who complain about it being overpowered and unbalancing?

Those people need to see the numbers and ask 2 questions.

1)What balance is lost with the original ToD?
2)What balance is created with the change?

According the numbers even you stated, the answers to those 2 questions are...

1) None.
2) None.
So *** are you arguing that it should be changed?

I'm truly confused. What was the point of posting the numbers to begin with if not to compare where you stand with relation to other classes and thus your desirability in relation to the other classes for groups?

Is it fair to summarize your argument as "We weren't top DPS, so leave us alone"?

Whether you were on top of the DPS charts or not, ToD was doing more damage than was originally intended. They're taking steps to rectify it. Even if the mobs save on everything but a 1, it doesn't greatly decrease your damage capabilities and it doesn't adversely affect your ability to play in exactly the same fashion as you did before.

If you're looking for the optimal Dark monk DPS build. If you're the kind of person that loves to tweak to pull out that extra 2% DPS, then it's possible that you'll need a different stat distribution, in which case I do feel bad for you. Sincerely, I do. But such is the nature of the ever-changing MMO. What's on top for one update may not be on top for the next.

FWIW, I don't think there's been any conclusive number crunching that definitively shows a high wisdom build will be better for DPS, even after the nerf. For all we know right now, it might not change a thing for stat distribution.

[gurgar78]

Oh, forgot to address one thing in your post:

While the current U7 implementation does indeed mean that you have a chance to do more damage than the current implementation, assuming the bug-fix, it is a relatively small chance and requires that you use your dark finisher. You will certainly AVERAGE less damage with ToD.

[elraido]

no, because with this mod, ToD is negative energy. The Abbot is immune to negative energy
A dark monk on the abbott will do zero damage with Touch of Death.

Why do you care what the monk community understands about Paladins? Did you create this thread because you felt bad and wanted sympathy for paladins? Did you create anti-tod whiners thread because paladins lost something?

Can you explain to me, after seeing the number, why it is you think monks should lose damage potential, without mentioning other classes? The chart clearly shows us something: Dark monks are the lowest dps of all the melee dps classes. So why is it, that you think we deserve to lose something under those conditions?

But as of right now they don't lose it vs undead and people are still complaining that they don't do enough damage.

The reason why I started this thread was to show that every single class has some sort ability (in this case, both of their "main" damage dealing abilities) have some sort of drawback. They work just fine, they are just bringing a current ability to one that is quasi similar to one that already exists...and it isn't that bad. And like I said that DPS chart is marginally useful at best. There are so many insanely situational buffs, instances etc that it really shouldn't really be taken as the bible of all DPS. Like I said, it is the same as people saying they have an insanely high AC but all of it is situational it can't be taken too seriously. It looks good on paper, but in practicality of the game...it doesn't work out so well.

The reason why they should lose damage potential is because the one they currently have is broken. There is no reason why they should have an ability to basically do a 100% chance of a strike that WILL do 500 points every single time they land it. No saves, no ability modifiers to change it, counting damage vs a type that it shouldn't. There is no other ability in the game that can do that, for good reason.

[gurgar78]

Can you explain to me, after seeing the number, why it is you think monks should lose damage potential, without mentioning other classes? The chart clearly shows us something: Dark monks are the lowest dps of all the melee dps classes. So why is it, that you think we deserve to lose something under those conditions?

How can we frame a response that doesn't mention other classes when the question itself is posed in terms of how you compare to other classes?

[Goldenadult79]

But as of right now they don't lose it vs undead and people are still complaining that they don't do enough damage.

The reason why I started this thread was to show that every single class has some sort ability (in this case, both of their "main" damage dealing abilities) have some sort of drawback. They work just fine, they are just bringing a current ability to one that is quasi similar to one that already exists...and it isn't that bad. And like I said that DPS chart is marginally useful at best. There are so many insanely situational buffs, instances etc that it really shouldn't really be taken as the bible of all DPS. Like I said, it is the same as people saying they have an insanely high AC but all of it is situational it can't be taken too seriously. It looks good on paper, but in practicality of the game...it doesn't work out so well.

The reason why they should lose damage potential is because the one they currently have is broken. There is no reason why they should have an ability to basically do a 100% chance of a strike that WILL do 500 points every single time they land it. No saves, no ability modifiers to change it, counting damage vs a type that it shouldn't. There is no other ability in the game that can do that, for good reason.

So basically you're saying, "I can't do it, so you can't either". I can't lay on hands, maybe we should add a save to it. The chart may not be a bible but its the best we got isn't it? otherwise what do we refer to exactly, your feelings? We see where the feelings argument lands: "if I cant do it, you cant either".

Did it occur to you to actually read all the other threads before posting here? Did you hear anyone mention that they have to re-spec their characters or be faced with an ability thats half effective on everything?

Did it also occur to you that the reason there are so many posts and so many threads is because people who wont even be effected by the change are flooding the threads?
You could have posted all the things you've said in this thread somewhere else. When a change effects a large group of people, and they feel that change is too damaging or unwarranted, they have every right to voice their concerns.

[elraido]

So basically you're saying, "I can't do it, so you can't either". I can't lay on hands, maybe we should add a save to it. The chart may not be a bible but its the best we got isn't it? otherwise what do we refer to exactly, your feelings? We see where the feelings argument lands: "if I cant do it, you cant either".

Did it occur to you to actually read all the other threads before posting here? Did you hear anyone mention that they have to re-spec their characters or be faced with an ability thats half effective on everything?

Did it also occur to you that the reason there are so many posts and so many threads is because people who wont even be effected by the change are flooding the threads?
You could have posted all the things you've said in this thread somewhere else. When a change effects a large group of people, and they feel that change is too damaging or unwarranted, they have every right to voice their concerns.

Paladins get intimidate now as a class skill. We aren't going to be getting a free respec for that. If we want to take advantage of it, we need to also to a lesser res on them.

Like I said before. Every single "major" nerf that has happened on this game, has not caused any problems. Even before people could respec their toons, there wasn't a huge backlash. You just reroll them and move on. Heavy armor evasion, TWF, Barbarian Frenzy, etc. All got nerfed. Everyone threw a hissy fit about those as well, complaining how their toons are broken, how they are worthless, how it is unfair. Guess what, everything was fine after. If your build is so built around ONE change like this, you have major problems else where with it. If a 6% change in DPS is so horrible and gimps your toon, guess what....it was gimp to begin with.

[PopeJual]

Paladins get intimidate now as a class skill. We aren't going to be getting a free respec for that. If we want to take advantage of it, we need to also to a lesser res on them.

Like I said before. Every single "major" nerf that has happened on this game, has not caused any problems. Even before people could respec their toons, there wasn't a huge backlash. You just reroll them and move on. Heavy armor evasion, TWF, Barbarian Frenzy, etc. All got nerfed. Everyone threw a hissy fit about those as well, complaining how their toons are broken, how they are worthless, how it is unfair. Guess what, everything was fine after. If your build is so built around ONE change like this, you have major problems else where with it. If a 6% change in DPS is so horrible and gimps your toon, guess what....it was gimp to begin with.

If I come over to your house and kick you in the junk, you'll recover by the next day (the next week at the latest). It will all be fine eventually.

Does that mean that you shouldn't complain if I do it? Does your post have any point at all?

[elraido]

If I come over to your house and kick you in the junk, you'll recover by the next day (the next week at the latest). It will all be fine eventually.

Does that mean that you shouldn't complain if I do it? Does your post have any point at all?

It is more along the lines of you coming to my house and stealing a nickle when I have a dollar. I am not broke because you stole a nickle.....

[rimble]

It is more along the lines of you coming to my house and stealing a nickle when I have a dollar. I am not broke because you stole a nickle.....

But don't you feel a little violated?

[elraido]

But don't you feel a little violated?

Maybe I like feeling violated...

[Trillea]

Maybe I like feeling violated...

Hmm what does it say between this post and having the only char in your sig being a lv 20 pally?

[Jacoby]

Stop the drama, stop the complaining, stop the whining. Everyone is saying it is a nerf that destroys their builds. If that destroys your build, then you have other issues.

First of all, it was overpowered. All they have done is toned it down to become more in line with a exhaulted smite ability....and it still has advantages over it. In order for a paladin to produce those types of numbers, they need to find an evil mob, expend an exhalted smite, and then CRIT on it. Basically a paladin only produces a crit smite on 1/4 of all his smites. You don't see people complaining about that...if they made it to the point where a paladin did crit on every one, there would be people saying it is game breaking. But Lord help them for wanting to "nerf" ToD so a mob MIGHT save on it for half damage. And why should ToD effect undead? Basically what a monk does is the give the five finger death punch to make someone heart explode. Undead are, well undead. It shouldn't work on them.

So stop the doom....stop the insanity. With every "nerf" that turbine has implemented, the game hasn't imploded on itself. The sun will rise, people will still play monks, people will still play quests and complete them just fine. Breath nerds, breath.

Whining/complaining are words to used to pigeon hole everyone who dissagree's into one category instead of taking on the merit of their arguments. We currently refer to this practice as flamming.