To all the people complaining about ToD

[elraido]

That was just list of modifications, which would include buffing smite to work on all mobs instead of just evil ones. Just wondering if ya did even read more than 2-3 words from every sentence...

That's a name, not description...

"You strike your opponent down with twisted ki, dealing 500 additional damage." (before U7)

Did you see word DEATH (mind to share the reason why we need to use caps on that word? o.o) there? I don't think so.

Why in the world would they buff smite to work on all mobs? It is called smite EVIL for a reason. You don't raise all the other abilities in the game to keep up with one broken one.

Yes, I do see the word DEATH.....it is called touch of death. It would be kind of redundant to use have the description the same as the ability. So they change it up slightly to help describe what it does. It isn't called blowing kisses.

[elraido]

Maybe we need to nerf Smite? I mean if it's a "similar ability" to a monks TOD it only makes sense, right? Because monks TOD is so clearly overpowered, then smite must be too.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said they are basically making it into a smite like ability. It means that they are LOWERING it to be in line with it.

[SINIBYTE]

"You strike your opponent down with twisted ki, dealing 500 additional damage."

Please also keep in mind, that its the Monk's Twisted Ki being used, not the enemies Ki being taken away. In other words, the monk is "twisting his Ki" (that sounds dirty), and using it as a damaging strike, it has no bearing on the targets Ki (or lack thereof).

[SINIBYTE]

Did you even read what I wrote? I said they are basically making it into a smite like ability. It means that they are LOWERING it to be in line with it.

If I wanted a "smite like ability", I'd have rolled a Paladin. But I didn't. I rolled a Monk. By your logic we should nerf the crit profiles of barbarians "to be in line with" monks.

[KoboldKiller]

The OP post is so full of ignorance, conceit and insults I am at a complete loss as how to respond in a manner they would understand.

How about this.

Go away troll. Your post brings nothing to the debate other than to incite those who are against the nerf.

I would advise the Mods to close this thread ASAP as it will result in nothing but a flame war.

[Sirea]

Maybe we need to nerf Smite? I mean if it's a "similar ability" to a monks TOD it only makes sense, right? Because monks TOD is so clearly overpowered, then smite must be too.

At least Smite has some sort of parameters. ToD had none up to this point.

ToD was overpowered. You know it, I know it. Everyone flocked to Dark Monks because it was the new Flavor of the Month, the new min-max dream, since "omg *whine whine* they nerfed my TWFers *whine whine*".

I'll echo what was already said above: If you were depending solely on ToD for your DPS, then there are other issues at hand. ANY well-geared and well-played monk can contribute DPS-wise (I dare to play a light monk in the face of "omg light monks r teh gimpz"), even without "the holy grail of monk strikes" that is ToD.

Because you know what? Raid bosses will still be beaten, even without ToD (maybe 3 seconds slower, but they will get beaten). Onoz, those portals will take 1 second longer to go down, how did we ever survive before ToD? Pfft...

[dkyle]

The funny thing is, people actually are doing more damage now than before. They are hitting for 650 points quit a bit with it.

Great, they can spend 40 ki, waste time setting up a Touch of Despair, and gain 150 or 300 damage on a ToD. I don't care that the max damage of a ToD has gone from 1500 to 1950 because I know that the average damage in practice has dropped. Versus the primary endgame bosses, it's strictly dropped, no matter the Wisdom, since ToDesp doesn't work. Higher WIS just means losing less. Against Undead and Constructs, it simply doesn't work. Against anything else, ToD might do more damage if the monk manages to get below a 25% save rate. Good luck with that in Amrath. Even then, total DPS will likely drop due the cost of performing a ToDesp for every ToD. Anything but epic Velah will not live long enough to be subject to more than one ToD per ToDesp.

Rogues have sneak attack, but they are limited once they get agro vs undead vs constructs etc. As of right now ToD has no limits...every 15 seconds you said, bam 500 points. A paladin has to even wait 90 seconds before they regen a smite evil after they use them up...~7-10 on average for a DoS.

OK, Rogues have a limit, which Dark Monks now gain the "joy" of dealing with. The aggro issue is minor, and irrelevant during boss fights. Heck, 50% fort will soon matter much less. A Paladin has greater baseline DPS than a Monk, at least vs Evil Outsiders. It's a whole different kind of class. Comparisons are pointless.

Also, if Dark Monks aren't that far ahead of light monks...why are there almost literally no light monks around?

Currently, Shintao is awful. The small amount of DPS advantage Dark Monks have is enough to overcome the situational buffs Light Monks currently get. Come U7, Shintao will be awesome. That is enough to encourage Light Monks. Gimping Dark Monk DPS at the same time is overkill.

And for the record, I don't have a problem with adding save, making WIS matter, or even the neg energy. I have a problem with making Dark Monks strictly worse DPS, which this nerf does in every practical situation that matters. Make ToD damage scale with level/Wisdom, to the point that its average damage for a level 20 Dark Monk with a reasonable WIS (say base 14) has approximately the same DPS as Dark Monks currently have. Or, hold off on the nerf, and implement it when a Ninja Spy overhaul gives back the lost DPS.

[Meretrix]

Wait till ya meet sorcerer/wizard using max + emp spells such as meteor swarm, polar ray and so on. They're one shotting ya fairly easily, especially if ya consider high crit rate (~18%).

not at level 9 there not

[elraido]

The OP post is so full of ignorance, conceit and insults I am at a complete loss as how to respond in a manner they would understand.

How about this.

Go away troll. Your post brings nothing to the debate other than to incite those who are against the nerf.

I would advise the Mods to close this thread ASAP as it will result in nothing but a flame war.

The only one trolling here is you. The rest of us are bringing up points and countering them. You have yet to bring up a single point besides posting a "troll" picture, saying troll, and saying to close a thread where everyone is actually being half way respectful.

You even said it your self....it is to debate. You are the one posting the stuff to incite me and/or others.

And Siera is right. It isn't so much the ability, it is the parameters that are completely currently lacking with ToD. Every single 15 seconds, 500 points of damage to everything. There is nothing in the game that has that ability for the most part.

[LeLoric]

Actually to attain a respectable WIS score to land a reliable TOD, GM Suns is an impossible stance to achieve.

not true

[elraido]

And for the record, I don't have a problem with adding save, making WIS matter, or even the neg energy. I have a problem with making Dark Monks strictly worse DPS, which this nerf does in every practical situation that matters. Make ToD damage scale with level/Wisdom, to the point that its average damage for a level 20 Dark Monk with a reasonable WIS (say base 14) has approximately the same DPS as Dark Monks currently have. Or, hold off on the nerf, and implement it when a Ninja Spy overhaul gives back the lost DPS.

Honestly, I think if it was a scaling wis modifier and had a save it would be fine. But even that would send people threw the roof.

[KoboldKiller]

Oh your absolutely right.

Your OP was not condescending or insulting in any way.

[KoboldKiller]

not true

The prove him wrong with a 32 point build and without including +3 or +4 tomes and without dumping con.

[dkyle]

Every single 15 seconds, 500 points of damage to everything. There is nothing in the game that has that ability for the most part.

So what? Since when is giving everyone the same exact abilities a requirement of good game design? Dark Monks got something special. Every class should get something special.

A Barbarian with an eSoS does far more than 500 points of damage every 15 seconds just from 19s and 20s, and that works on everything crittable (i.e., everything that matters at endgame). If the "works on non-crittables" is the big problem with ToD, why the DPS nerf of adding a save?

And the "at level 9" part often brought up is irrelevant as well. There are ways to fix that without gimping DPS at level 20.

Honestly, I think if it was a scaling wis modifier and had a save it would be fine. But even that would send people threw the roof.

To be clear, I believe scaling by level is the more important thing. 500 damage at level 9 is excessive. I wouldn't actually say its overpowered, since casters overpower everything anyway at that level. But at 20, dealing 500 with a save for half is not enough. It should be more like 700 with a save for half, for a reasonable WIS Dark Monk. That way, vs a mob that saves half the time, ToD does about the same damage as before.

[elraido]

Oh your absolutely right.

Your OP was not condescending or insulting in any way.

First of all it had more of a sarcastic tone to it. If you couldn't see that, that isn't my fault. Second of all, I brought up a couple valid points...and we have been debating those since then with out name calling or anything of the sort until you came along. If you don't agree with me and what is being said in here, then post some valid arguements against it. If not, then take your trolling some place else.

[SINIBYTE]

At least Smite has some sort of parameters. ToD had none up to this point.

ToD was overpowered. You know it, I know it. Everyone flocked to Dark Monks because it was the new Flavor of the Month, the new min-max dream, since "omg *whine whine* they nerfed my TWFers *whine whine*".

I'll echo what was already said above: If you were depending solely on ToD for your DPS, then there are other issues at hand. ANY well-geared and well-played monk can contribute DPS-wise (I dare to play a light monk in the face of "omg light monks r teh gimpz"), even without "the holy grail of monk strikes" that is ToD.

Because you know what? Raid bosses will still be beaten, even without ToD (maybe 3 seconds slower, but they will get beaten). Onoz, those portals will take 1 second longer to go down, how did we ever survive before ToD? Pfft...

Which is it? Is it overpowered or is underpowered? Can't quite tell from your post... You claim it's OP, but then say we only shave off 3 seconds on boss fights, and 1 second on portals... That doesn't sound OP to me...

[elraido]

So what? Since when is giving everyone the same exact abilities a requirement of good game design? Dark Monks got something special. Every class should get something special.

A Barbarian with an eSoS does far more than 500 points of damage every 15 seconds just from 19s and 20s, and that works on everything crittable (i.e., everything that matters at endgame). If the "works on non-crittables" is the big problem with ToD, why the DPS nerf of adding a save?

And the "at level 9" part often brought up is irrelevant as well. There are ways to fix that without gimping DPS at level 20.

eSoS is something that you actually have to work for. It isn't just "given" to you like being able to be a dark monk. Also, You can have a barb with a starting 10 str and not have him rage etc. He isn't going to hit for 500 points with crits. There is currently nothing with a dark monk that prevents something like that happening. You could have the most gimp build monk ever, and they can still hit for 500 points. There has to be a "restriction" as how they get that ability. every other ability in the game is the same way, have to give up something to get something....except that one.

[smatt]

1. It isn't overpowered.

It WAS

2. We aren't Paladins.

Now you are

[SINIBYTE]

not true

Please show me a build that has a respectable TOD DC, GM Suns, the full TWF line (all monks need this), and you can't use CON as a dump stat. And please save your +4 tome required TR builds... and if you're REALLY up for the challenge show me a 28 point build that can do it.

[SINIBYTE]

It WAS

Now you are

hah! touche.