Eladrin Lead us the wrong way...

[Chai]

Are you a man or a woman, or are you a human with the male subtype or human with female subtype?

Waaaaay too much rules lawyering going on.

/comic book guy voice...

Well it clearly states here in chapter 4 paragraph 13 line 42 subsection A in appendices 1, 2, and 4, that if its evil subtype and its an outsider, its not an evil outsider, because somehow evil became a subtype and stopped being an alignment at some point, and THIS is also clearly explained in chapter 17, paragraphs 22 and 23....

/barf

Is it evil?

Is it an outsider?

If the answer is yes for both, then evil outsider bane and FE evil outsider should work. Why even make things with no bane.

Half orcs have orcish blood which means orc bane will work, and I believe this is even listed as a feat in their profile, so why cant a half outsider (which is what tieflings basically are) be affected by evil outsider bane?

A little consistency please.

/straightens out princess-leia-as-jabbas-love-slave poster in the background.

/switches camera off.

[Missing_Minds]

Being Native does not exclude you from also being Evil.

Type is not alignment.

Bane and FE react to type.
Holy, PG, PE, axiomatic, anarchic, etc. react to alignment.

So I agree, native does not exclude one from also being evil. They are complete separate categories of classification.

[Junts]

Type is not alignment.

And yet greater evil outsider bane works just fine.

[Missing_Minds]

And yet greater evil outsider bane works just fine.

Yeap. Read the second sentence response of post #18.

[Claymorep]

Ohh my god. I'm really found frustrating to read nerds answer like these in this tread...
They are outsider and the tieflings in these quests are evil! FE and KOTC tier 1, 2 and 3 have to work, stop.
Moreover if we want to explain this a little more... KOTC set from Shavarath does 3d6 extra damage to them, so why not tiers?
Come on Paladin are good vs evils.. the most the evil the most damage so for undeads and so for demons and devil (more specifically from inferior planes).
I don't think paladin and rangers will be overpowered from this fix, considering that 90% will play half orc barbarians... Give these classes a little more thing to survive...

[TheDearLeader]

Ohh my god. I'm really found frustrating to read nerds answer like these in this tread...

Now now, its not nice to call people names. The pot doesn't like it when the kettle calls it black. Or did we miss the part where we're all registered users and players of Dungeons and Dragons Online?

Being a Native Outsider is different from being an Evil Outsider. But are subtypes. Native Outsiders can be of any alignment. That is why in the 3.5e world Tieflings have much more "choice" about what their code of conduct and moral standpoint may be than, say, a Barbazu.

That's by the book. Now - the weapons, "Evil Outsider Bane", could be interpreted as "Type, Outsider, Alightment, Evil", unlike our capstones, which refer to a subtype of Outsider, Evil Outsider (Technically, there is Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil Outsiders by Subtype, almost like a sub-subtype. Thankfully, both quality.)

All this said... yeah, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if KotC did extra damage to tieflings. Doesn't seem particularly game breaking, and anything that adds to the KotC's realm of killing is good, considering how niche of a PrE it is in the first place.

[FlyingTurtle]

"Native outsider"?

Wow, and I thought my "resident alien" status in my tax forms was an oxymoron.

[rodgerflint]

Native Subtype

A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

^From PnP^

[cdbd3rd]

....

/comic book guy voice...

Well it clearly states here in chapter 4 paragraph 13 line 42 subsection A in appendices 1, 2, and 4, that if its evil subtype and its an outsider, its not an evil outsider, because somehow evil became a subtype and stopped being an alignment at some point, and THIS is also clearly explained in chapter 17, paragraphs 22 and 23....

....

Not getting into the debate as I'm unarmed for that confrontation - however it didn't stop me from chuckling at this part.


...til the "/barf" part. That was kinda gross. Just WHAT did you have for lunch?!?

[SneakThief]

Tieflings are native outsiders. The bug should be that "evil outsider" bane weapons are working against them

If we are getting all rules lawyer-ish I have to go with this ^^.

Banes are rolled up by types/subtypes, not alignments, and type/subtype sticks even if alignment changes. It would be more clear if it read: FE Outsider,Evil and Greater Bane Outsider, Evil.
Tieflings are: Outsider,Native.

[donfilibuster]

Rules Lawyering, yes. Rules confusing, no.
Paladin smites evil, yes. Works on aligment.
Bane hurts evil, no. Works on specific monsters.

[Irongutz2000]

Well my biggest issue is that they are considered Evil Outsiders when it comes to using Evil Outsider Bane, but not for Favored Enemy or KotC...

I also, mistakenly, thought that Fiendbloods were Outsiders, but they're actually just Extra-Planar...

That being said, would making Knight of the Chalice do damage to all Evil Extra Planar creatures make it overpowered?

I honestly think it would, because that would include all Elemental Bosses, Maruts (I think), and all the Fiendbloods and Meffits. :/

I guess Tieflings are the only ones IMO we should actually be able to do additional damage to (based off the Evil Outsider Bane) without over-doing it by making it extra-planar creatures.

If u have probs killing tieflings with out the extra damage from kotc, then there bigger issues u need to look at lol

[KKDragonLord]

I would like KotC to work against Tieflings.

And to be less restricted as it is.

The end game is no longer dominated by Devils exclusively now that we have Epic and and now the Paladin prestiges are found lacking, which is disturbing, to say the least.

The class is suffering enough from the way the game is now super focused on High DPS, High to Hit and High Hit points. Pallys are naturally balanced to walk a thin thread, its special abilities are now less relevant to not say lackluster. Once upon a time the adaptability and survivability of the Pally were his high points, now we are nothing but lesser alternatives in melee. And our Prestiges are not nearly good enough to compensate our shortcomings. It is... disheartening.

Btw, before the naysayers come along in joyful disagreement mentioning twf and *very* situational DPS peaks, i am talking about the class as a whole. Its suffering from a lot of issues and the gap is getting wider and wider with no solution in sight.

[DrakHar]

And the tieflings alignment? Has nothing to do with its type. According to the rules a bane weapon will still hurt a chaotic good tiefling because of its type. Ironically, this tiefling takes two penalties basically, because he is also hurt by things that hurt good creatures based on his actual alignment, and stuff that hurts evil things based on his type.

Tieflings are outsiders, they have the type, the damage SHOULD apply to them

[richieelias27]

Well my biggest issue is that they are considered Evil Outsiders when it comes to using Evil Outsider Bane, but not for Favored Enemy or KotC...

I also, mistakenly, thought that Fiendbloods were Outsiders, but they're actually just Extra-Planar...

That being said, would making Knight of the Chalice do damage to all Evil Extra Planar creatures make it overpowered?

I honestly think it would, because that would include all Elemental Bosses, Maruts (I think), and all the Fiendbloods and Meffits. :/

I guess Tieflings are the only ones IMO we should actually be able to do additional damage to (based off the Evil Outsider Bane) without over-doing it by making it extra-planar creatures.

Elementals are not evil, maruts are not evil, and mephits are not evil.

[elraido]

What about having it apply to the djinns in epic Von 6? I believe they are listed as Air Outsiders. Should it apply to them as well?

[donfilibuster]

Outsiders come from the outer planes (or spheres, for eberron).
Elementals, mephits and genies come from the inner planes/spheres. Just there's no point in calling these 'insiders'.

Thieflings and rakhasas may live in the outer spheres like shavarath but are tied to the material plane and thus can't be banished.
(which is something the native subtype does, as living beings rather than otherworldly)


Edit:

Tieflings are outsiders, they have the type, the damage SHOULD apply to them

Bane needs type AND subtype, it was mentioned above, says so in the SRD.