Top 25 Best Sorcerer Spells

[tinyelvis]

First quick look at post above: Max+empower is 3.5 not 2.5. Empower being *1.5, max being *2 = *3.5
edit: haha, oops, 3 not 3.5

Wall of fire does not tick once every 30 seconds, its way the hell less than that.
edit: nevermind, 15 per 30. Read initially as ticks per 30.

At any rate, casting a fireball 15 times in 30 seconds is great DPS and all, but completely unnecessary except situationally (boss fights), and at all other times will leave you out of mana very very quickly. This brings us back to the original point of why Wall of Fire is such an awesome mana saving Damge spell.

You are leaving out an extremely important point of calculating all that uber dps with fireball - how much mana was spent on one WoF vs 15 Fireballs?

Oh, and I was not "skewing toward undead" I was making a specific argument refuting your statement that WoF is ONLY useful in epic. I was pointing out that there is a massive undead heavy portion of the game which fits neatly into a level range starting around when you get WoF, and possibly leveling you all the way up to Gianthold or beyond. If you are going to use the "great for low levels" excuse for Niacs, then you cant just randomly dismiss the exact same argument for WoF.

Thanks for help, I think 2.5 for max and empower is correct. Also, you really dont need 15 fireballs in a row, I just pointed out that one could cast at that rate. Its comparable to saying the GAU-8 Avenger auto cannon has a rate of fire of 4200 rounds per minute. Of course the A10 never fires that many rounds and only carries a fraction of that amount as ammo.

Casting a fireball vs firewall is exactly what you want to use if you prefer to perform better levels 6 - 10 (other spells at higher level). Further, never stated you didnt need WOF. Again, as I pointed out, it is situationally very useful, or for those few times where you really want to pump up your DPS. However, a DPS approach will net you more kills faster. This can be true even in undead quests (and is true in all quests prior to high level play) where the wall of fire performs best. I am not sure your point, are you claiming a Wall of fire has higher first damage or DPS? If not, then how can you claim it is a better approach?

In first shot kill situations AOE can be cheaper than wall of fire. In multiple shot cases it cost more. Is this surprising? If it cost less there would never be a reason to use wall of fire. At 8th level you are talking something around 20 maximized fireball shots between shrines, or more than twice that if you don't maximize the spell (which is often all that is needed). There is typically no need for half that many.

[Hokonoso]

this list fails, have the spell my sorcs have never even had in their spell list cause they are so terribad at all lvls!

[FlyingTurtle]

Why are we arguing over FB/DBF vs WoF? Is there a sorcerer who doesn't have both of these in their spell list?

[richieelias27]

Thanks for help, I think 2.5 for max and empower is correct. Also, you really dont need 15 fireballs in a row, I just pointed out that one could cast at that rate. Its comparable to saying the GAU-8 Avenger auto cannon has a rate of fire of 4200 rounds per minute. Of course the A10 never fires that many rounds and only carries a fraction of that amount as ammo.

Casting a fireball vs firewall is exactly what you want to use if you prefer to perform better levels 6 - 10 (other spells at higher level). Further, never stated you didnt need WOF. Again, as I pointed out, it is situationally very useful, or for those few times where you really want to pump up your DPS. However, a DPS approach will net you more kills faster. This can be true even in undead quests (and is true in all quests prior to high level play) where the wall of fire performs best. I am not sure your point, are you claiming a Wall of fire has higher first damage or DPS? If not, then how can you claim it is a better approach?

In first shot kill situations AOE can be cheaper than wall of fire. In multiple shot cases it cost more. Is this surprising? If it cost less there would never be a reason to use wall of fire. At 8th level you are talking something around 20 maximized fireball shots between shrines, or more than twice that if you don't maximize the spell (which is often all that is needed). There is typically no need for half that many.

Undead tend to have overinflated HD, especially at that level and in those quests. On any difficulty other than normal it will require more than one fireball to kill something. You also get into incorporeal undead and undead with invis, further decreasing the likelyhood that you will catch everything in one blast. That was my main point with Wall of Fire. Using both is also overkill, may as well just cast two Fireballs in that case. But that is essentially the choice here - 2 to 3 fireballs to clear a room, or one wall of fire.

[JustWinBaby]

Why are we arguing over FB/DBF vs WoF? Is there a sorcerer who doesn't have both of these in their spell list?

This is a "Top" list. And WoF was at 22. That's the arguement

[FlyingTurtle]

This is a "Top" list. And WoF was at 22. That's the arguement

Sounds like Tiny opened a can of worms that could easily have been avoided by saying "My Most Awesomest Sorcerer Spell List Evarrrr"

I'd be more interested in comparing same-level same-role spells against each other. E.g., disintegrate vs flesh to stone, etc etc.

[tinyelvis]

Sounds like Tiny opened a can of worms that could easily have been avoided by saying "My Most Awesomest Sorcerer Spell List Evarrrr"

I'd be more interested in comparing same-level same-role spells against each other. E.g., disintegrate vs flesh to stone, etc etc.

You know, I would have thought most folks would have recognized that. There are as many top 25 lists as there are play styles. You are probably right though. I just can't help but agitate from time to time.

[richieelias27]

You know, I would have thought most folks would have recognized that. There are as many top 25 lists as there are play styles. You are probably right though. I just can't help but agitate from time to time.

You choose your words poorly. You title the thread "Top 25 Best sorcerer spells" which would imply that you feel this to be "the" list of spells that every sorc should strive to have and in this order. Then you use words like "novice" in your WoF description, and "DC challenged or inexperienced casters" in your DBF description. This would imply that surely only a novice player would use WoF with any great regularity, or that if someone isnt rocking the world with your spell list, then they must be noobs. This gives a certain air of... shall we say pompous elitism to your postings. The rest of the players of DDO are simply here to tell you "no, this is in fact incorrect and/or not the only way to go, and you just don't seem to understand why saving mana is such an awesomely great thing to do in most quests"

Between that and exped retreat over haste.... among several other choices.... Hell even solo I keep Haste up over exped retreat....

Its not agitation, its total confusion as to why anyone would make some of the choices you're making. Like wasting a level 2 slot on Eagles instead of buying a potion??

[Thesoulgazer]

Thanks for help, I think 2.5 for max and empower is correct. Also, you really dont need 15 fireballs in a row, I just pointed out that one could cast at that rate. Its comparable to saying the GAU-8 Avenger auto cannon has a rate of fire of 4200 rounds per minute. Of course the A10 never fires that many rounds and only carries a fraction of that amount as ammo.

Casting a fireball vs firewall is exactly what you want to use if you prefer to perform better levels 6 - 10 (other spells at higher level). Further, never stated you didnt need WOF. Again, as I pointed out, it is situationally very useful, or for those few times where you really want to pump up your DPS. However, a DPS approach will net you more kills faster. This can be true even in undead quests (and is true in all quests prior to high level play) where the wall of fire performs best. I am not sure your point, are you claiming a Wall of fire has higher first damage or DPS? If not, then how can you claim it is a better approach?

In first shot kill situations AOE can be cheaper than wall of fire. In multiple shot cases it cost more. Is this surprising? If it cost less there would never be a reason to use wall of fire. At 8th level you are talking something around 20 maximized fireball shots between shrines, or more than twice that if you don't maximize the spell (which is often all that is needed). There is typically no need for half that many.

But dbf takes up one of those precoius lv 7 slots- with Wof, ottos dance sphere, and fod, switching one out for dfb can hurt. On the other hand, many of the lower lv 4 spells can be obsoleted. The very fact that a lv 4 spell can compete with a lv 7 is amazing. If you have something like frost lance at the top (ok spell btw, but i treally just is a thing to cast while ur polar ray recharges) The wof should be up there as well. NOt to mention that wof doesnt have more damage up front, but it ticks again and again. If ur in a party, then the "OMG i have to kill these guys on the first hit" Attitude many not be the best on. The dfb is rather mana intensive and fires and has a save

[tinyelvis]

Undead tend to have overinflated HD, especially at that level and in those quests. On any difficulty other than normal it will require more than one fireball to kill something. You also get into incorporeal undead and undead with invis, further decreasing the likelyhood that you will catch everything in one blast. That was my main point with Wall of Fire. Using both is also overkill, may as well just cast two Fireballs in that case. But that is essentially the choice here - 2 to 3 fireballs to clear a room, or one wall of fire.

Even if you use 2 to 3 fireballs to clear a room as you state (which is not always necessary even on elite), then you can do this about 10 times between shrines. So, in effect you almost instantly clear a room 10 times (what will amount to all mobs encountered). This is exactly why these spells are preferred by me to wall of fire. I still don't think you get it. The speed of killing is what is desired by me. Sure it cost a little more in spell points. Sure it takes a little more skill. But I am willing to pay those prices.

Miscasts and misfires has absolutely nothing to do with being a new player or casting style.

Again, this is not an accurate statement. There are plenty of things to do to avoid these events. One simple skill to learn is to not cast at a target but rather a spot on the floor. Another is to make sure no one (including enemy mobs) is standing directly in front of you. Using just these two simple skills can reduce your problems with casting to near zero. Take the time to learn some casting skills and your performance will increase.

You choose your words poorly. You title the thread "Top 25 Best sorcerer spells" which would imply that you feel this to be "the" list of spells that every sorc should strive to have and in this order. Then you use words like "novice" in your WoF description, and "DC challenged or inexperienced casters" in your DBF description. This would imply that surely only a novice player would use WoF with any great regularity, or that if someone isnt rocking the world with your spell list, then they must be noobs. This gives a certain air of... shall we say pompous elitism to your postings. The rest of the players of DDO are simply here to tell you "no, this is in fact incorrect and/or not the only way to go, and you just don't seem to understand why saving mana is such an awesomely great thing to do in most quests"

Between that and exped retreat over haste.... among several other choices.... Hell even solo I keep Haste up over exped retreat....

Its not agitation, its total confusion as to why anyone would make some of the choices you're making. Like wasting a level 2 slot on Eagles instead of buying a potion??

I agitate people in an effort to help them look at topics from a different angle. Especially when the numbers don't match the current thoughts, ideas, or mass hysteria. Why are my words chosen poorly. In the first sentence I clearly stated "This spell list was selected with the thought that damage dealing spells get bonus consideration."

Haste is a nice spell and might rate high on a support or party buff list, but why is haste a damage dealing spell? Haste does little to improve you damage dealing capability. In fact, if you take haste as soon as available like you claim you heavily impact or gimp you damage dealing potential by not taking fireball, acid blast, or frost lance. The haste you would throw on the party at 6th level would do much less to increase the party DPS than if your spot was replaced by someone who produced DPS (i.e another melee or offensive caster). Since haste is not a damage dealing spell and can actually gimp your damage if taken too early, then why necessarily should it be included in this list, let alone the top as you suggest.

Wall of fire is not a high DPS spell. It is a great spell to use situationally. In almost all cases, the good time situationally to use this spell is when you are short on mana (or in other words against mobs with super high HPs compared to your damage dealing ability). Since, this spell rarely has a DPS use outside of epic play it does not really rate high on this list since so many other options are available to put out more damage at a higher rate.

My points are not confusing they are clear. I explained why all spells made the list. I use numbers and analysis to demonstrate why I would chose say a fireball over a wall of fire and when. You fall back on old guard ideas and resort to typical bully tactics and peer pressure regardless how poor your point of view is shown to be. If anyone gives the wrong impression to new players, its folks like you.

[tinyelvis]

But dbf takes up one of those precoius lv 7 slots- with Wof, ottos dance sphere, and fod, switching one out for dfb can hurt. On the other hand, many of the lower lv 4 spells can be obsoleted. The very fact that a lv 4 spell can compete with a lv 7 is amazing. If you have something like frost lance at the top (ok spell btw, but i treally just is a thing to cast while ur polar ray recharges) The wof should be up there as well. NOt to mention that wof doesnt have more damage up front, but it ticks again and again. If ur in a party, then the "OMG i have to kill these guys on the first hit" Attitude many not be the best on. The dfb is rather mana intensive and fires and has a save

IF well buffed and you are spec'd for it, delayed blast fireball can put out massive damage. Do you personally have poor performance with delayed blast fireball? If so, I noticed you use ottos sphere. Try casting this spell on dancing foes and see the results (they get a -15 to saves). Waves is soon to be made less than desirable again. Finger of death cant be used in epic play (DBF has some limited uses there). Can't you use wail of banshee instead of finger for your insta kill at other levels of play?

[Dendrix]

Haste and Wall of Fire not being in the top two indicate you are unable to perform even simple, basic mathematics and evaluate what two spells produce the most total damage over their lifetime and the most damage per spell point.

It's really that simple.

[richieelias27]

Again, this is not an accurate statement. There are plenty of things to do to avoid these events. One simple skill to learn is to not cast at a target but rather a spot on the floor. Another is to make sure no one (including enemy mobs) is standing directly in front of you. Using just these two simple skills can reduce your problems with casting to near zero. Take the time to learn some casting skills and your performance will increase.
Right. Casting FB as opposed to Wall of Fire does not require "skill" I already stated how I personally use the spell (exactly the way you describe I might add). Fizzles, misfires, and holes in the area of effect do happen no matter what you do.

...

Haste is a nice spell and might rate high on a support or party buff list, but why is haste a damage dealing spell? Haste does little to improve you damage dealing capability. In fact, if you take haste as soon as available like you claim you heavily impact or gimp you damage dealing potential by not taking fireball, acid blast, or frost lance. ...

I never said anything about taking haste before an aoe damage spell. Personally I would never take haste first. In the end though, its just one level. My only beef with haste not being up there is that haste "adds" to dps. Once you have haste and fireball/acid blast/wall of fire, there is absolutely no reason for you to not be hasting the party. You can add that additional party dps to your own inside your mind. The fact that it does not increase your own personal kill count is irrevelant. I cant quite wrap my mind around why you would not be both hasting and casting damage spells... hasting is something you do between combats, not during... takes nothing away from your own dps.

...

My points are not confusing they are clear. I explained why all spells made the list. I use numbers and analysis to demonstrate why I would chose say a fireball over a wall of fire and when. You fall back on old guard ideas and resort to typical bully tactics and peer pressure regardless how poor your point of view is shown to be. If anyone gives the wrong impression to new players, its folks like you.
I mentioned guards? Interesting... I do not remember mentioning anything about guards or torc mana regen... that is a solo tactic, not a group tactic. And bullying? Wow. Good one. I guess any disagreement with any point you make and then making a counterpoint is "bullying" inside your head.

mine in red

[shagath]

People seem to forget that dbf and chain lightning has a same dmg as polar ray does but both are aoe. Polar is only more useful if monsters saves evocation or has certain immunities. I prefer chain lightning over dbf any day. Now I'm in a wizard(palemaster) life so I don't have APs enough for lightning/acid.

I like chain lightning more than dbf because it works against almost anything. It's best dps spell at amrath. I'm hoping firewall gets nerfed so I can go back to lightning/acid.. or perhaps I should just skip testing out archmage and go straight back to sorcerer.

Chain lightning should be 1. on that list.

[sirgog]

The key difference in the style of play that I promote is DPS. Wall of fire is not a high DPS spell. DPS (or instant kill spells with infinite DPS) is how you kill things fast. I feel, a DPS or insta kill approach should be used when possible. However, there are situations that demand a damage efficiency approach. In these situations, wall of fire is the best choice. Even in the best situation a player could come up with (vs. undead) the DPS capability of wall of fire compared to an appropriate AOE is much less. We are talking 30% less or more.

If you are taking about killing things fast in Casual difficulty, then yes, you are completely correct.

However, most of us that are replying to you play on higher difficulty settings than Casual. As such we do not encounter situations where a single DBF or Chain Lightning, even a Max-Empped-Eardweller crit one, kills an entire room. Such a crit won't even kill a Frost Giant in normal difficulty Prey on the Hunter. It might on Casual, I've not tried.

Also, most of us play on difficulty settings where you can't just use the easy button of reusing a shrine. Most endgame mobs above Casual require four to ten max-empped nuke spells to kill. (Example: The weaker Dream monsters in the IQ quests on Elite have ~4500 hp). Mana conservation is important in almost every quest and, unless you are running quests that are far easier than your level and gear would suggest that you should run, blowing even six nukes per room is totally unsustainable.

[richieelias27]

If you are taking about killing things fast in Casual difficulty, then yes, you are completely correct.

However, most of us that are replying to you play on higher difficulty settings than Casual. As such we do not encounter situations where a single DBF or Chain Lightning, even a Max-Empped-Eardweller crit one, kills an entire room. Such a crit won't even kill a Frost Giant in normal difficulty Prey on the Hunter. It might on Casual, I've not tried.

Also, most of us play on difficulty settings where you can't just use the easy button of reusing a shrine. Most endgame mobs above Casual require four to ten max-empped nuke spells to kill. (Example: The weaker Dream monsters in the IQ quests on Elite have ~4500 hp). Mana conservation is important in almost every quest and, unless you are running quests that are far easier than your level and gear would suggest that you should run, blowing even six nukes per room is totally unsustainable.

I think what we might be missing is that he has somehow found a way to get the epic norris headband to drop (odd since this item wasnt supposed to be in-game until levels 21-40 were unlocked). It makes all spells no longer fail if your opponent rolls a twenty, and packs a tiny chuck norris into every spell you cast. On impact he unleashes a furious roundhouse erasing the target from existance.

[valorik]

Know what I just remembered?

A capped sorc only has 32 spells, so the op only really had to drop 7 spells on his spell list to choose a "top 25"

Just thought it was worth mentioning

[shagath]

A capped sorc only has 32 spells, so the op only really had to drop 7 spells on his spell list to choose a "top 25"

Not all spells of are used at level 20. For example I bet no one uses "Eagles Splendor" at lvl20.

[fuzzy1guy]

Polar is only more useful if monsters saves evocation or has certain immunities.

Your polar ray has a save?

Wow... Mines so awesome it doesn't have a save.

[richieelias27]

Your polar ray has a save?

Wow... Mines so awesome it doesn't have a save.

He means if the monster is saving vs your other evocation spells or is immune to fire (assuming), then polar ray is a better option as it is ice and has no save.