The Golddigger

[Robi3.0]

Thinks: Irinis may have a grumpy gus stalker.


/realreason for coming to this thread







Listen, Irinis I'ma gunna to let you finish, but I just wanted everyone to know that Renegade66 has one of the best melee bards of ALL TIME!


/cue hiphop beat

I ain't saying she's a gold digger, but she ain't messing with no broke .....

[jsaving]

I like the idea of a melee-based spellsinger, Irinis, and I think you've done a nice job laying out a viable build along those lines. I've been wrestling with how to do this myself so I thank you for the ideas you've provided!

Melee spellsingers usually end up being stretched too thin, with subpar weapon DPS coupled with subpar casting. You overcome this problem by throwing away crowd-control casting entirely and essentially adopting the stats and feats of a standard TWF warchanter. I think this is the right way to go, but I wonder whether you've gone quite far enough. Your "variant" build that replaces the lesser mark with improved critical seems almost mandatory if you're going to dish out a reasonable amount of weapon DPS. I think you could also make a case for replacing extend with khopesh, though I personally like the convenience of having extend on my bard builds.

Finally, I agree with you that the capstone isn't as important for your build as it is for some. A fighter splash would be the most conventional approach, and it would certainly give you some breathing room for "somewhat useful" feats like quicken. But I wonder whether you've thought about a variant where you'd splash rogue for survivability and search/disarm? You'd probably want to shift 2 stat points from CHA to INT if you went this route, but I don't see that an initial charisma of 12 would harm your build concept in a significant way.

This is one of the most thought-provoking builds I've seen in some time and I wish you the best of luck as you go forward with this character.

[Irinis]

Thanks, it was Samadhi's idea I just wrote out a build for it. The first one is a bit of a "flavour" build, and the "variant" is the actual serious if-you-wanna-play-this build.

[dogonovo]

Opinions from a beginner so you milleage WILL vary =)

I took my lvl 14 CHA/CC/Heal based Spellsinger to Lamannia and LR'd him. STR 18 DEX 08 CON 16 WIS 08 INT 08 CHA 14, level ups in STR. Same feats he had but took Maximize instead of SF: Enchant and Power attack instead of Heighten, traded every CC spell in his spellbook for a utility/buff alternative. Effectively I traded CC/DCs for STR/dmg. Got Spellsinger II too obviously. Didnt change a single item in his equipment.

What I can say is that in areas/quests where before I had to be very careful and really worry about not using all my SP, now he can just enter, buff and rush. More survivability (due to MUCH faster killing), more improvements for the party (spell slots not occupied by CC spells, more SP for healing, etc) and definetly a better sense of contribution. Not that I personally didnt/dont like CC, but my limited experience in parties tells that CC is good to have (as most things are) but absolutely not a must. And by reading the forums I believe CC in epics is restricted to Irressistible (no save), Fascinate (no significant change in my DC) and spells that dont belong to the bard spell list (mass hold, mass comand, etc).

All in all I am happy, he can heal better than before, fight better than before and that darned oversized kobold in Mired In Kobolds will not laugh at the lonely bard entering her hoard chamber anymore ^^ (tho the second dragon still has bragging rights and at least 45% HP left...).


PS - Would love more experienced advice on the Empower Healing + Empower/Maximize. Which combination makes for more cost-efficient heals at lvl 20? Is one or the other (or both) particularly useful or a must have for parts of the game I havent experienced yet? Thanks already

[Aashrym]

PS - Would love more experienced advice on the Empower Healing + Empower/Maximize. Which combination makes for more cost-efficient heals at lvl 20? Is one or the other (or both) particularly useful or a must have for parts of the game I havent experienced yet? Thanks already

Empower healing is a little more SP efficient than maximize healing. Maximize healing gives bigger bursts and is more efficient than no feat and less efficient than empower healing. I normally run both on my healing spell singer, but if you are going to only select one maximize is the better choice for when faster healing becomes a priority.

You can consider empower spell instead of empower healing. It helps healing and greater shout damage if you decide to take it, but it is less SP efficient than either maximize or empower healing on it's own, where maximize will also help with healing and greater shout. IE maximize is better in this case if you are only taking 1 feat.

Hopefully that helps.

[dogonovo]

Thanks, but actually I am debating whether I should go for Emp Heal + Maximize OR Emp Heal + Empower Spell. Using two feats activated together Maximize costs more but I am not sure if it (Empower Healing + Maximize) is more SP efficient than the other alternative (Empower Heal + Empower Spell).

[Aashrym]

Thanks, but actually I am debating whether I should go for Emp Heal + Maximize OR Emp Heal + Empower Spell. Using two feats activated together Maximize costs more but I am not sure if it (Empower Healing + Maximize) is more SP efficient than the other alternative (Empower Heal + Empower Spell).

Empower Heal + Maximize Spell is more SP efficient than Empower Heal + Empower Spell AND gives you better burst healing. That is definitely better.

Edit: For clarification, I am referring to Cure Critical Wounds and higher level cure spells. Depending on level you may want to start with Empower heal first and take maximize after a bit.

[Irinis]

Actually, maximize and empower healing are equally efficient on a Bard because we don't get Heal or Mass Heal (which Maximize doesn't work on anyway). They are mathematically identical in terms of efficiency. Maximize is just bigger and that enables you to actually heal raids. It will also work on our one and only offensive spell, Greater Shout. (Whoop de do.)

If you can only take one, take Maximize. If you're taking more than that, you'll run out of SP very quickly on a non-max-CHA character and I haven't even bothered on my max CHA Spellsinger. Emp Heal + Emp is less efficient but would give you toggle options if you really want that. Personally I don't find it worth it. Now if we got actual offensive spells that worked, it'd be a different story. I'd be happy to trade some efficiency for being able to nuke. (Of course, that would make the Bard feat list even more tight than it already is... sigh.)

Dogonovo - Discoball is used in some epics and only works with a very high DC. My Diva build has only half the gear she needs for max DC, and they do still save sometimes. I had to equip a Greater Spell Focus: Enchant item to make it work at all at 36 CHA. Just got 38 CHA and still have to equip it. We'll see what happens at 40 and 42 CHA.

[Aashrym]

Empower Heal costs 20 SP for for the same amount of healing Maximize spell costs 25 SP for. Am I missing something I should be seeing?

And disco ball is awesome.

PS: Cure critical wounds, for example costs 25 SP base. So it's 25 SP to cast it once. Adding 50% twice=100% more HP for 20 SP, which is cheaper than casting it twice. Maximize costs 25 SP. So a single maximize costs the same as casting it twice but only takes 1 cast. The same SP, same healing, faster healing, more efficient at that point.

Any time the SP cost < the base cost a player will save SP by using the meta feat, with the exception for over healing. I run both empowered healing and maximize healing because it's cheaper for the HP/SP cost than not having them up and saves me SP. This gets better with mass cure light and mass cure moderate. 35 base SP twice would give less HP than spending the same 35 SP on both feats and casting the spell once.

Hopefully that helps.

Edit: For empowered healing or empowered spell to be SP efficient the feat needs to cost less than half of the base cost of the spell. For maximize to be SP efficient the base cost needs to be 30 or more. I thought I better be clearer on that part.

[BoBoDaClown]

My Diva build has only half the gear she needs for max DC, and they do still save sometimes. I had to equip a Greater Spell Focus: Enchant item to make it work at all at 36 CHA. Just got 38 CHA and still have to equip it. We'll see what happens at 40 and 42 CHA.

Interesting. WHat's your DC? 38? Once feat tokens go on sale I'm going to drop my spell focus enchant feats because I felt a DC of 40+ was a waste - this would leave me at 38+, have you found that not enough?

I tend to layer my disco balls with a mind fog (when I know the fight is coming up), which might grab the casters, but in all honestly I expect my ball to pick up the melees, and then I use Irresistible for the pesky casters.

[Irinis]

With 38 CHA, Greater Spell Focus: Enchant, Spellsong, and Staff of the Petitioner, 37 DC. They still save a bit more than I'd like. How are you getting 40+ DC?

[BoBoDaClown]

With 38 CHA, Greater Spell Focus: Enchant, Spellsong, and Staff of the Petitioner, 37 DC. They still save a bit more than I'd like. How are you getting 40+ DC?

Off the top of my head (and I don't usually do these calcs, so feel free to point out errors):

Cha:
18 Base
5 Level
9 Item (6+3)
4 Enhancements
3 Tome
2 Capstone
2 Yugo
---------
43
Situational Stuff:
+1 guild cha - use this frequently. Consider this reliable.
More Infrequently:
+1 -> +3 House D pots I tend to use the +1 pots (have heaps) when missing the guild buff to get me to 44. Only use the +2/+3s when needed/rarely/for fun.

So, normally running a 44 cha in a CC quest.

DC:
10 base
6 level
2 capstone
2 feats
2 weapon (spitter)
1 spellsong
17 cha bonus
------
40
Sometimes I grab a +1 guild enchant DC buff = 41.

Obviously missing key items (+7, +4tome, litany, +2 guild cha would be nice).

However, reason why I ask is I feel a DC of 40 is a little overkill. With my bard I tend to:
a) Heal in raids/epics. My Cha doesn't matter.
b) CC epics. Mobs rarely save (cept for high will ones of course).

So I was planning on dropping the two spell focus feats and my spell pen to pick up Empower Healing (to go with Maximise - yummy), and Power Attack and Improve Crit.

I was hoping this would make me a more rounded bard with very little CC sacrifice, but if you feel a DC of 37 (and note the difference between our DCs is basically buffs) isn't cutting it, then I'm a little hesitant about making the change.



p.s. Just looked up Staff of P - hmmmmmm yummy. That 10% sp discount stacks? I still haven't done abbot - really going to have to get onto that.

[Aerendil]

Also keep in mind that Maximize works on offensive spells too and not just healing spells.

If and when Bards ever get a bigger spell list and can choose some more sonic/DD spells, this may be prove very useful.
There were tests a year or so ago on maximized Greater Shouts with the best gear you can get, and the damage wasn't all that bad. Just horribly inefficient with SP.

[Aashrym]

Also keep in mind that Maximize works on offensive spells too and not just healing spells.

If and when Bards ever get a bigger spell list and can choose some more sonic/DD spells, this may be prove very useful.
There were tests a year or so ago on maximized Greater Shouts with the best gear you can get, and the damage wasn't all that bad. Just horribly inefficient with SP.

Casting greater shout (35 SP) and get 2x damage for 25 SP seems cheaper than caster greater shout twice for 70 SP. Was that comparison to wiz/sorc spells?

Edit: NVM, ran a simple spreadsheet and Maximize is less efficient for total damage inflicted per SP for greater shout when including equipment. Math skills for the win .

[BigButter]

Off the top of my head (and I don't usually do these calcs, so feel free to point out errors):

DC:
10 base
6 level <--------------------------------------

BoBo---it looks like you might be running with Heighten (see bold/underlined/arrowed in your above msg)?? Irinis didn't cite that in her DC calcs so that's -1 for the Mind Fog, -2 for the Disco Balls and -2, iirc, for the single-target Hold. That possibly accounts for some of the variation in your comparison/results with her experience of Disco Ball not totally crushing.

I'm running my CHA-based, capped, un-heightened SS with only a 36 CHA (no Yugo, no Guild buffs, no +3 exc, and no +3 or +4 tomes). I've got the Dreamspitter, both SF: Enchants, and my Spellsong up. Again running unheightened, I can solo Epic Carnivals up to boss battles using Fascinate to stop the room, Irresistible on the casters, and Single-Target Hold to get trash melees and archers to auto-crit so I don't fall asleep chipping away at a full-health epic mob with 24 STR (raged). It takes long enough beating on the dancing casters even with the Epic Antique Greataxe and Imp Crit: Slashing.

The single-target hold and disco ball is only DC 34 with my setup and it isn't where I would like it, although it is still pretty darn 'doable.' Mobs save more at the outset and break free earlier than I want them to (even after woo-wooing them down a few neg levels with the Spitter) but it takes 1-2 re-casts too often I'd say.

It's probably pretty clear that no one wants DC34 for epic or Amrath CC, in my experience, as a long-term play style. I'm going to swap out my Spell Pen feat for Heighten and play with those soloing epics to see if I can tell a difference (both in stickiness of DC-based spells and Spell pen failures on Otto's Irresistible---I know Ol' Faithful Fascinate will still be there ).

So I was planning on dropping the two spell focus feats and my spell pen to pick up Empower Healing (to go with Maximise - yummy), and Power Attack and Improve Crit.

I was hoping this would make me a more rounded bard with very little CC sacrifice, but if you feel a DC of 37 (and note the difference between our DCs is basically buffs) isn't cutting it, then I'm a little hesitant about making the change.

If I were betting with your character, your money and your plat , my hunch is that DC 37-39 is a sweet spot for now depending upon each player's preference/tolerance. If you can get to 44 CHA regularly, I'd say go for it and dump your Greater Sp Focus and pick up Imp Crit: whatever you want or go healnutz with Emp. Healing on top of your Maximize. Easy for me to say though!

@Irinis: Could you confirm that you are running un-heightened and then again what your experience is with your DC's now that you've moved up to 38 CHA???

Thanks!

[BoBoDaClown]

BoBo---it looks like you might be running with Heighten (see bold/underlined/arrowed in your above msg)?? Irinis didn't cite that in her DC calcs so that's -1 for the Mind Fog, -2 for the Disco Balls and -2, iirc, for the single-target Hold. That possibly accounts for some of the variation in your comparison/results with her experience of Disco Ball not totally crushing.

@Irinis: Could you confirm that you are running un-heightened and then again what your experience is with your DC's now that you've moved up to 38 CHA???

Thanks!

I'd say she runs with Heighten and the difference of 3DC come from charisma (38-44).


If you are playing without Heighten, I'd grab it if I were you (I'd take heighten before spell focus or spell pen).

[Irinis]

Yeah sorry BigButter we started talking about my max CHA spellsinger CC/heal build in the thread for the melee one. Oops.

[dogonovo]

Thanks for the answers and back to melee SS it is then =)

Currently in Lamannia he has Toughness, Power Attack, Heighten, Extend, Maximize and Emp Heal (with Spellsinger II also obviously). I am seriously thinking of making him like this when U7 comes alive. From your experience which would he benefit more from? Considering he ditched his CC spells completely, has only utility and healing: Spell Penetration x2 for Irresistible (when he gets it and I get to use it for the first time); WF: Slash and Imp Crit for a welcome increase in damage? Thanks in advance for your time and answers.

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks for the answers and back to melee SS it is then =)

Currently in Lamannia he has Toughness, Power Attack, Heighten, Extend, Maximize and Emp Heal (with Spellsinger II also obviously). I am seriously thinking of making him like this when U7 comes alive. From your experience which would he benefit more from? Considering he ditched his CC spells completely, has only utility and healing: Spell Penetration x2 for Irresistible (when he gets it and I get to use it for the first time); WF: Slash and Imp Crit for a welcome increase in damage? Thanks in advance for your time and answers.

Hey Dog, I'm not sure why you have Heighten on a melee build? (I might have missed something). With your build (assuming pure), I'd probably look at: Toughness, PA, Extend, Max, Emp Heal, Improve Crit, THF, and ITHF? Your spell pen should be fine as a pure bard.

Replying to your earlier post, you commented on CC bards in epic - CC is certainly possible in epic quests, ball, hold, and irresistible work a charm - obviously mass hold would be better, but the Bard spells do the trick.

Sorry for derailing your thread a bit Irinis - you know how it is

[dogonovo]

Gah, posting at 6:30 AM doesnt really work... No wonder you found it strange Bobo, it was supposed to be Quicken where you read Heighten. He had/has Heighten before I LR'd him in Lamannia and my fingers were reminiscing when I typed ^^ Thanks for the reply and suggestion and if I may... If you had the choice of either 2HF + Imp Crit or 2HF + Imp 2HF what would you think adds more to playability and contribution for the party?

On CC Bards and end-game: Thanks, it is really great to hear some people saying that if I really choose to focus on CC I can do that with a bard. What I am thinking is that for it to be effective (effective as in Hey, lets send a Tell to that nice bard that helped a lot in the last run!) I had better wait until I am more well off in the game because good items matter that much. And after reading a bit more about Song regerating rapiers, SP regerating Conc Oppo items, Desintegration Guard, etc, I am willing to have a couple of these banked before undertaking the harder work of full CHA/CC.

Again thanks