i know nobody cares but virtuoso II is bad

[elujin]

plz plz devs rethink The Song of Capering i see no use for it at all (except mebey griefing people in brawl)

we need some love to be on par with wc and spellsinger people don't even talk about virtuoso in any bard discution its that bad .

[dunklezhan]

Virtuoso II make Dunklezhan sad.

That is all.

[andbr22]

Does cappering song work on undead and constructs (with apropriate enchantments)?

If song of cappering don't work for undead and construct , then it is dissapointing PrE.

[Dilbon]

If it wasn't broken the range would make it a nice song. But as far as I know it only works against the same kind of mobs as Enthrall.

[Razcar]

The second tier bard PrE's are all weak and lacklustre IMO. The Virtuoso one is still better than Warchanter II. I won't even bother to take it on my Warchanters.
Cost: 5 AP
Benefits:
Medium Armor? Pointless. Won't help weak Warchanter AC anyway.
Song of Recklessness? PUG-wiper only good for WF or griefing.
Song of Heroism? Short duration song replicating a common spell. Pointless, as people will want the long-lasting spell instead of a short song.
One martial weapon? Not even full martial weapon prof, but one stingy little weapon. Any good Warchanter will multiclass anyway. So pointless.
10 HP? Yay, thanks. Not worth 5 AP.

[Ponza69]

I am not really sold on the Virt II is poorly designed.

I think Virts were not part of the min/max crowd to begin with.

[Angelus_dead]

The second tier bard PrE's are all weak and lacklustre IMO. The Virtuoso one is still better than Warchanter II.

Nah, Warchanter 2 is powerful if you're around Warforged a lot.

But yup, all of the tier 2 Bard specialties need work.

[andbr22]

-10% fortification is for sure PUG wiper, but in decend guild player wise with and rather low level (25) You accually could get guild gems (small) that give 10% GUILD bonus to fortification, but of course it require you to have armor or shiled with small guild gem slot.

Hero song = 4 to hit AND resistance against beholders (in sub, and some quests it is realy worthwile)!

[Aashrym]

Yeah, war chanter II can make the songs work situationally, and ppl will still want the tier I benefits, so warchanter will still be popular. I didn't notice the guild slot 10% bonus to fortification, so with warforged, guild bonus, and palemasters toggled to undead form the penalty on the song of recklessness might be mitigated.

Song of heroism as a party buff instead of single target and not dispelled looks like a reasonably decent benefit. Better than blowing SP on groups of ppl and watching it vanish.

Spellsong vigor is handy. SP over time up to 288SP/song + bursts I believe.

Song of arcane might is a very minor benefit IMO, but no drawbacks to using it. I think the +1DC from spellsong trance might be more useful.

Sustaining song isn't bad, the healing does add up and for a song it's a pretty cheap way to heal top up between fights, and does help a bit during combat, particularly when everything is standing around looking at blue notes.

Capering song looked like it has such potential and did not even come close. It definitely does not affect undead or constructs regardless of other enhancements. It does hit well and can be done at range, but this makes it more like enthrall without the debuff when it breaks (unless there is a debuff I don't know about).

Stealthing in with enthrall seems to work better than capering song unfortunately. It breaks too easily. Adding an undead dancing version if the virt has music of the makers (same with constructs) and replacing the break chance with a static duration would make it a better stepping stone between resistible and irresistible and still have some usefulness later in the game.

I wouldn't say these PRE tiers do not have room for improvement, but at least there is something useful with each one.

It looks to me like song of capering needs retooled in a big way and spell singers may as well get used to buffing the melees and buffing / mana batterying the casters. Then helping with some back up casting/healing if needed.

[dunklezhan]

I am not really sold on the Virt II is poorly designed.

I think Virts were not part of the min/max crowd to begin with.

Well that's true enough since the min/max crowd thing tactics and CC are dirty words - Enthrall is certainly worth getting Tier 1 Virtuoso for if you can find groups who want to proceed slowly (here's a hint, puggers: if you can't find a full on healer for your run and you think for some reason that stops you proceeding, consider asking for a virt bard. They can probably cast decent enough heal spells, can use wands, and can CC every thing in the dungeon so you don't get hit and need healing in the first place. If they're virtII they might even be able to use their mass healing song, which is at least of some direct benefit).

But that's no reason to give Virts such a crappy song for Tier 2. Only acceptable reason I can think of for the song of capering to be so poor is that the eventual Tier 3 will be a mass version. Extra songs are no longer a big plus because of the Sentinels rapier that regenerates songs - I'd rather have seen the Tier 2 Pre regenerate the songs in the same way that the Radiant Servant gets their Turns regenning. Sure with the rapier it would still be needless but at least it would have been something unique to the PrE. Replicating a single target Otto's dance (a L2 spell, albeit with a ridiculously high save) is just... poor.

However... the healing song is quite good. Or it would be, if Virt regenned songs as I think would be more apt, instead of just gaining extra ones. Maybe one for Virt III.


Either way now I'll certainly be grinding out those sigils to upgrade the Rapier I have sat in the bank. My Virt rarely comes close to using all his songs as it is due to the increased durations of the buffs and the lack of CC usage in the game. But with mana-free healing I guess there'll be a lot more call for it.

Maybe that's how Virt will go: each tier will give you one utterly crappy special song (Tier 1 being Suggestion, Tier 2 being Capering) and one that's probably really useful if people let you use it (Enthrall for T1, mass healing song for T2). If T3 gives you regenning songs instead of just extra ones, I'll forgive whatever crappy spell-mimicking song they tack on to it.

In short:

Virtuoso II makes Dunklezhan sad. But Virtuoso III might make Dunklezhan very happy. Maybe.

[voodoogroves]

So, I've played a few bards. About to cap my first, and honestly here's what I think.

Warchanter ... still no reason to stay pure. You could, but why?
Spellsinger ... you should stay pure.

Virtuoso ... the best stay-pure bard choice for those who dump-stat CHA


Sounds sad, but I can only imagine using this on a low-CHA bard where the difference in a perform of 65 and 63 is meaninless on a will save.

[AylinIsAwesome]

The second tier bard PrE's are all weak and lacklustre IMO. The Virtuoso one is still better than Warchanter II. I won't even bother to take it on my Warchanters.
Cost: 5 AP
Benefits:
Medium Armor? Pointless. Won't help weak Warchanter AC anyway.
Song of Recklessness? PUG-wiper only good for WF or griefing.
Song of Heroism? Short duration song replicating a common spell. Pointless, as people will want the long-lasting spell instead of a short song.
One martial weapon? Not even full martial weapon prof, but one stingy little weapon. Any good Warchanter will multiclass anyway. So pointless.
10 HP? Yay, thanks. Not worth 5 AP.

I know I'll be taking Warchanter 2 on my main during her Bard life so I can wear my Marilith Chain.

[BelVic]

No words from devs if this song is broken nor in known bugs list as well.
Hope they fix it before going live.

Bump so may be devs can see it

[andbr22]

Well still one of the best things is that now we have infinite SP battery for casters for Epics (of course if you can wait 90 seconds for new song (anthem) that add about 300 SP), that can be usefull for weaker, and slower (lot slower) groups.

[Mikula]

Each one of the PrE's has one song I love and another that is worthless.

Recklessness: Yeah I get the idea is to boost DPS while making your character vulnerable. Expected there to be some negatives to using it. But as many other people said this increases damage spikes not more damage. Right now the only time I see this being used is if bards pull WF aside and play this for them. Even then though it would affect the bard too so the bard might not even do that so that he can protect himself.

My counter suggestion: The song isn't bad it is the implementation. It is called "Song of Recklessness" Of course it was going to have some negative effect. An increase in the percent of physical damage would be my suggestion as that would increase overall damage while keeping it constant and not creating spikes.

Song of Capering: Doesn't add anything new. I do think Turbine had their heart in the right place. Virtuosos are right now the masters of CC and I think their new abilities should increase that but I don't think making 1 target dance through a song is enough of a boost to help them at all. Ignoring the fact that it stops when attacked.

My counter suggestion: My idea would be to have a song form of the spell illusion wall. Have it create a "Wall" probably bigger than a fire wall but not much more. Creatures who fail a Will DC treat this wall as if it really existed and are forced to go around. This would add several new tactics and is in no way overpowered. I would only say that you would want it to be as powerful in song form as it would be if cast by a fully speced illusion caster of the same level if not a little bit more.

Song of Arcane Might: I would never cast this. Having spellsong vigor makes songs more valuable than before. I would take more sp over this everyday of the week. This is a poor man's Spellsong Trance. It is sad when you would use the tier 1 song over the tier 2.

My counter suggestion: I am not sure what I would suggest to replace this song. The thing is spellsingers have a very limited job. Heighten and strengthen their spells and those of their allies. Choices here are limited. And some things are pretty obviously over powered. The few ideas I came up with probably all are too powerful but I will throw them out anyway.
Quicken song, obviously a song that has the same effectiveness as the quicken metamagic no stacking.
Spell song of? Love maybe? basically reduces the hate generated by songs, should stack with other hate reducing effects.

[quityourjobs]

It would make more sense if Warchanters got the healing song along with the damage song, as it strengthens an area where they're weak (healing) and offsets the damage caused by the loss of fortification (though it obviously won't stop sudden death). More bonuses to Intimidate?

Spellsong Vigor, sure that's a nice party benefit, but not huge. Spellsingers really need more spell selection in order to be the caster-oriented Bards they're meant to be. Song of Arcane Might doesn't do much for me. Plus to Concenatrate and UMD don't add much besides flavor (Spellsingers already have huge UMD numbers).

Virtuoso II is a mess... with an Otto's that breaks quickly on its own and a healing song that pales in comparison to Spellsong Vigor. Longer and more songs? Do Virtuosi really need higher Perform numbers to be effective?

[khaldan]

I know I'll be taking Warchanter 2 on my main during her Bard life so I can wear my Marilith Chain.

Pretty much this, marilith chain is easily worth the 5 AP. And if you're WF, you may as well take it for soloing.

[Emili]

I know I'll be taking Warchanter 2 on my main during her Bard life so I can wear my Marilith Chain.

I was thining the same but seems to me a splash does just as well... not sure if the arcane failure really matters much on a chanter.

[Drakesblood]

I did some research here in this thread: Virtuoso II: To Sing or Not to Sing

Let me break down my score on Virtuoso II PrE:

Cost: 4 AP (Bug: should be 2)Well I can understand that Virtuoso are "OP" but 4 AP? When it goes to 2 AP then will I give this a 2 out of 2. 0/2

Prerequisites: Level 12 Bard, Bard Virtuoso I, Bard Charisma 2, Bard Lingering Song II, Bard Extra Song IIIOk, level 12 good. Bard Virtuoso of course, Bard Charisma 2 once again it's good, Bard Lingering Song II is ok if you like really long songs, and finally Bard Extra Song III... Uh... Why? we all ready got 17 songs at level 12 why do we need more? When your capped it looks bad when you have 31 songs when I rarely use more then 20. 2/3

Benefit: Your further studies into song have granted you another +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, for a total of +4 to each. You also gain 2 more extra uses of Bardic Music per rest for a total of 5, and the ability to extend the duration of your beneficial songs by an additional 10% for a total of 20%. You can now expend a use of Bardic Music to apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.+2 to skills I can live with and not game breaking nor bad. 2 more songs... that 20 at level 12 good god that's a lot of songs. Extended song duration is good and in line with the PrE. 4/6

Sustaining Song
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. It lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per level.A song that's ok at level 12 but could be better if the Bard Song Magic/Bard Lyric of Song/Bard Lyric of Incredible Song enhancements worked to amplify the song for higher levels. 1/2

Song of Capering
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to make a single enemy dance helplessly. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC Based on Perform check.)Please oh god please make this an AoE based song! If not please just have the enemy just makes saves every 5 seconds at the Preform DC and not do a saving throw on every hit at a way reduced DC. It's a very weak single target enthrall. 0/2

I added comments in green.

[quityourjobs]

Pretty much this, marilith chain is easily worth the 5 AP. And if you're WF, you may as well take it for soloing.

Unless you take Rogue levels, then it's not worth it.