Touch of Death Compromise

[Lifespawn]

just another way multiclassing gets the shaft.

I thought the downside was losing out on pre's now they are adding in the ToD nerf whats next.

I think it should have NO save and be based on levels of monk with a cap like the heal spell such and such per level max xxx for somewhere between level 12-14.


at 9 you get the 250 negative energy maybe giving 50 per monk level after that till it caps at 400 at 12 or 500 at 14 this way there is still some scaling but doesn't invalidate multiclassing since it has it's own drawbacks. ie lower unarmed damage no top tier pre no 10dr at 20 no qp.

[BlackSteel]

base 10 +20 monk level +8 wis modifier=38 dc.

This will hit for full 500 over 50% of the time in epic content. 26 wis is a pretty moderate amount.

epic trash mobs are still trash mobs, they're in auto crit and using ToD is completely unnecessary to start with.

hows that 38 DC going to hold up to hard or elite horoth or the epic demon queen?

my 18 starting str WF monk will be pushing a 43 ToD DC, and frankly I dont think that will be working enough to bother with as well.

[psymun]

epic trash mobs are still trash mobs, they're in auto crit and using ToD is completely unnecessary to start with.

hows that 38 DC going to hold up to hard or elite horoth or the epic demon queen?

my 18 starting str WF monk will be pushing a 43 ToD DC, and frankly I dont think that will be working enough to bother with as well.

You'll still be getting a guaranteed 250 points of damage every 15 seconds, along with the other crits of 80-100 points of damage you will be getting from normal critical strikes. Not to mention sneak attack damage and ki strikes...

[LeLoric]

epic trash mobs are still trash mobs, they're in auto crit and using ToD is completely unnecessary to start with.

hows that 38 DC going to hold up to hard or elite horoth or the epic demon queen?

my 18 starting str WF monk will be pushing a 43 ToD DC, and frankly I dont think that will be working enough to bother with as well.

If you are hitting a 43 dc youll be getting Epic queen about 75% of the time. Thats still worth it to not dump wis as the previous post I quoted recommended.

[Voldomar]

just another way multiclassing gets the shaft.

This.

Monks, in general, excel against constructs in particular compared to most melee classes. Their lower critical power and inherent ability to bypass adamantine damage reduction make them lose less by fighting them.

16th level monks are.
Mutliclassed monks ( typically level 12/x/x ) not so much. Tod really helped here

Hopefully you'll come up with something balanced for pure monks and not too punishing for a multiclassed toon

Diversity=fun

[BlackSteel]

If you are hitting a 43 dc youll be getting Epic queen about 75% of the time. Thats still worth it to not dump wis as the previous post I quoted recommended.

how about hard / elite horoth?

[Teran]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced.

Absolutely NOT. Any attack that is going to interrupt our attack chain is FAR inferior than just throwing a save on something. I haven't entered into these discussions much simply because I don't really care one way or another about the current proposed change (although I'm still never going to use the neg. energy amplification thing). However, if you are interrupting our attack chains, that IS a significant nerf. No thanks.

I completely agree with Samadhi. Please do not make it like the "palm strike".

[Tarnoc]

Yes, they won't be naturally better vs constructs/undead, which is the desired objective.

do you actually play this game?

[articwarrior]

This negative energy damage is counted as a spell like ability which does not fail on an attack roll of 1.

so let me get this straight... If it's a spell-like ability, can it be enhanced by pale master set?

[Dandonk]

About monks doing great damage to hv fort mobs:

It's true we lost the least of our damage, compared to other classes, but let's look at a twf kensai's base damage. A 1d10 khopesh, but he gets +8 damage from feats and enhancements (let's call the haste boosts + capstone + higher strength + better burst effects a wash against the better attack speed of the monk) so he actually does more damage than the monk's 2d10 fists.

[elyssaria]

Change Touch of Death to:

You do 10*monk level (max 200) of physical (blunt) damage to your target, plus 300 bonus negative energy damage if target failed a fortitude save. The save DC is the same as your stunning fist DC.

The physical damage part can be double (triple) striked (in wind stance). For a maximum 600 damage. This physical damage part can miss due to roll of 1 or low attack rating vs target AC.

The negative energy damage part cannot be double striked. But can be amplified 25% by Touch of Despair for a maximum 375 damage. This negative energy damage is counted as a spell like ability which does not fail on an attack roll of 1.

This split in damage type will allow dark monk to have some means of hitting constructs and undead, and limit the maximum damage done (900 uncursed, 975 cursed) per single hit.

Well I can agree to this change to partly still it doesn't solve the problem that has been mentioned alot before and even has an own thread. Str based and multiclassed monks suffer way to much with the DC. In general I prefer the other suggested solutions much more etc:

* Make it proc max 2 times and skip the DC (keep it untyped, untyped/negative or negative..preferably one of the first two)

* Remake ToD into a 60 sec buff that gives you 18-20 threat x3 crit before IC is applied.

Both those changes keep the str based and multiclassed monks still viable as well.

/Khierra

[Asymetric_War]

I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation.

on the face of it that would at least give us a ToD that is useful in epics, useful in Amrath, useful vs undead and constructs, and doesn't discriminate against multiclass toons. Then again a double proc for 250 is the same damage as a single proc for 500. and while it's useful everywhere that has to be balanced vs the chance of a triple proc and neg energy amp which would make the single-shot 500 slightly lower damage for a lot of content. So this suggestion vs the original is essentially a wash.

[Asymetric_War]

Well I can agree to this change to partly still it doesn't solve the problem that has been mentioned alot before and even has an own thread. Str based and multiclassed monks suffer way to much with the DC. In general I prefer the other suggested solutions much more etc:

* Make it proc max 2 times and skip the DC (keep it untyped, untyped/negative or negative..preferably one of the first two)

* Remake ToD into a 60 sec buff that gives you 18-20 threat x3 crit before IC is applied.

Both those changes keep the str based and multiclassed monks still viable as well.

/Khierra

I really like this suggestion.

[Kriogen]

Make it like Chill Touch:
- Negative damage on hit. No save.
- STR damage on failed Fort save.
- on natural 20 (like vorpal) Fort save vs Death or Hold/Stone/Stun effect. Undead make save vs stun/hold.

So you get solid damage attack, debuff, second insta-kill (or extra stunning touch) and can CC undead. As you are Dark (Light=buff, Dark=debuff) this sounds good to me.

Just autoattack vs contructs or use smiting shortswords (Ninja perk).

[rimble]

Make it like Chill Touch:
- Negative damage on hit. No save.
- STR damage on failed Fort save.
- on natural 20 (like vorpal) Fort save vs Death or Hold/Stone/Stun effect. Undead make save vs stun/hold.

So you get solid damage attack, debuff, second insta-kill (or extra stunning touch) and can CC undead. As you are Dark (Light=buff, Dark=debuff) this sounds good to me.

Just autoattack vs contructs or use smiting shortswords (Ninja perk).

I don't wanna be a Necromancer...

[Gumbolo]

Make it like Chill Touch:
- Negative damage on hit. No save.
- STR damage on failed Fort save.
- on natural 20 (like vorpal) Fort save vs Death or Hold/Stone/Stun effect. Undead make save vs stun/hold.

So you get solid damage attack, debuff, second insta-kill (or extra stunning touch) and can CC undead. As you are Dark (Light=buff, Dark=debuff) this sounds good to me.

Just autoattack vs contructs or use smiting shortswords (Ninja perk).

12ap for neg dmg (just wondering how much you're suggesting...), str dmg (which happens to be useless on epics) and natural 20 for fort based save vs hold, stone or stun ain't really awesome...

[Kriogen]

Got another idea.

How about:
- negative damage on hit
- vampiric effect. All or part of that damage heals you and/or party members

Or:
- negative damage on hit
- level drain (enervation at 9, energy drain at 18)

[DarkThoughts]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation.

Yes please!

I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.[/I]

It took me just over 25 attempts before I pulled the Devout Wraps. One of my poor guildmates has run The Shadow Crypt over 90 times now and still has not pulled them. We've taken full parties in there with him on numerous times trying to help him get them, but it's just not in the cards.

[SINIBYTE]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced.

Add in a chance to crit for double damage and you have a deal!

[Mobeius]

Eladrin, I sincerly doubt you are going to get the anti-ToD changes crowd to agree to any compramise as they dont get it. I do and some others get it as well what the TRUE envisionment of monks are to be. For some reason wihtout ToD they think monks suck, which is completely not true. The dont get the dark monk is supposed to be opposite of light monks for flavor, ergo positive/negative energy, they dont get Wisdom was never meant to be a dump stat, they dont get they cant be Monkarians without give up a trade off.

I saw a plethora of posts about they would rather have it back to the sngle 500 pt untyped damage no save than the new version. Now you offered that and gave an inch to work with them, now thats not good enough. They want it to double proc, which inherrently means a triple proc due to game mechanics, which they are not fooling anyone.

They dont get it and most of the power gamers wont get it nor be happy till they get their desire.

Another option that Soleran suggested (and I added to) for consideration is that ToD give a stackable double threat range for their fists and increase the threat multiplier by one for a certain KI cost with a duration, say 50 Ki for 60 seconds. Not sure how this would break the game giving this to them as it wouldnt work on Undead, Constructs, Elementals and Raid Bosses 50% of the time.

Now getting everyone on board to agree for the most part, is a different trick.