Touch of Death Compromise

[Angelus_dead]

ToD is available at level 9. It is not an end-game ability.

It is nonsense to say that things available at low-level aren't end-game abilities.

Being an endgame ability is based on where you use it, not where you got it.

[Eladrin]

Sometimes I have the impression that you don't play a lot... not monks, anyway.

I actually have a monk on the live servers that I was playing this weekend. We four manned Garamol in the Subterrane (yeah, yeah, I know, big deal) and I got my Icy Raiments on the second try*, and then we went rampaging through the Inspired Quarter quests.

A lot of the devs play a lot more than people think. We may even be in your parties sometimes.

Man, dunno if you know that fact, but smiting go out with a crit and taking a fighter or a barb with the low crit of their weapons (in the case of fighter something like scimitar, for example) and a monk with wraps of smiting... Guess who is gonna rip the construct first.

Depending on the exact circumstances, I'd rather use something other than Smiting. Smiting has a DC 23 Fortitude save, and only triggers on 10% of your attacks as a monk, unless you're a Ninja Spy using shortswords or using whirling steel strike. Yes, most golems have awful saves, but a Masterwork Flesh Golem or better will still make the save most of the time.

Obviously the relevant topic is inflicting hitpoint damage on constructs, not instakilling them with a Smiting weapon.

I think he more meant that monks have higher base damage than anyone else in the game, and natural ability to bypass dr on constructs.

Fists are what 2d10 at 20th... my kopesh is 1d10.

Monks have always dealt great base damage, its the low crits that "hurt" them, and those low crits mean nothing when fighting things with 100% fort.

That is, indeed, what I was talking about.

Remember you need both adamantine and blunt for construct bypass

That's only for clay golems.

Eladrin, the only "overpoweredness" of ToD is that you can triple hit for 1500, or possibly more with the current implementation with curse.

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

There's also the flavor thing of Touch of Death being optimal against the Walking Dead and the Unliving being a bit... wrong.

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.

Bring Armor Customization on update 8 or 9, please! My eyes hurt when I see so much people looking exactly alike!

That bothers us too. Would be nice to find a solution to it.

Yes, fixing AC is an important topic for improving the game design, but it's also a different topic.

It is important. And yeah, it's also a different topic.

* I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.

[Angelus_dead]

It is important. And yeah, it's also a different topic.

I'll expand on the AC thing a bit.

Some players arguing against the change to Touch of Death are comparing the DPS of dark monks against Barbarians and Fighters, as if DPS were the only thing that matters. They're leaving out that the monk has hugely higher defense against many kinds of attack (incorporeal, AC, healing amp, will save, reflex save, improved evasion, spell resistance, immunities, jumping), and also somewhat better crowd control.

Some people would argue that in the current state of the game, those features are irrelevant to the content they care about. To the extent that that is true, it is a problem that needs to be solved, not something that should be taken as a given and used as the basis for balancing DPS ability.

I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation.

Any comment on Shintao Smite using the palm strike?

[Odin's_Hugin]

A lot of the devs play a lot more than people think. We may even be in your parties sometimes.

Omg, I'll be more aware to talk badly about devs in my parties now, dang! =P

That bothers us too. Would be nice to find a solution to it.

Simple solution: Stone of Change gives an armor the look of another armor, if you place them together + some collectables.

Granted they are of the same armor class (light, medium, heavy, robe, vestments, for example).

How about that?

* I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.

I gave up devouts, I never had luck to get it (or anyone else in my parties). I also hate to grind, even less for a trouble-some Puzzling quest like Shadow Tomb. So Im happy at Shintao III.

Also, since you're reading me: Fists of Light seems to be bugged since update 5, giving less heals per attack than it had been.

Thank you for being so communicative, btw, Eladrin. I sure appreciate that. It gives me a warm feeling inside ;D

[Sker-lyn]

I actually have a monk on the live servers that I was playing this weekend. We four manned Garamol in the Subterrane (yeah, yeah, I know, big deal) and I got my Icy Raiments on the second try*, and then we went rampaging through the Inspired Quarter quests.

A lot of the devs play a lot more than people think. We may even be in your parties sometimes.


Depending on the exact circumstances, I'd rather use something other than Smiting. Smiting has a DC 23 Fortitude save, and only triggers on 10% of your attacks as a monk, unless you're a Ninja Spy using shortswords or using whirling steel strike. Yes, most golems have awful saves, but a Masterwork Flesh Golem or better will still make the save most of the time.



That is, indeed, what I was talking about.


That's only for clay golems.


If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

There's also the flavor thing of Touch of Death being optimal against the Walking Dead and the Unliving being a bit... wrong.

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.


That bothers us too. Would be nice to find a solution to it.


It is important. And yeah, it's also a different topic.

* I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.

God or Lady Luck loves you, man, 'cause I was tired to try the quest with my monk in her first life and nothing, not for me, not for guildies. I did by now the quest almost three, four times, the same... I don't even know the icon of the devouts. The thing didn't show up for any of my chars.

With dragontouched I have an awful luck either, so I ended up with the white dragonscale robe... not good, not amazing, but decent.

Speaking about the important matter... I prefer untype damage no DC and one shot than negative energy or the DC or both. That was the idea in the beggining and I loved it the way it was.

ToD is an edge for us, a resource... a lifeguard, if you prefer... Lose that ability in the places we needed more and againts the most important mobs is really bad.

And... who says is bad that ToD damage constructs and undead?? Maybe the Death is tired of these things escaping it and wants some revenge in the fist of the monks

And about Shroud portals, I can't say a thing... I touched so little the Shroud that I can say but bring down portals, even with ToD at full is tired and time consumed.

And if you, some day, fix AC, my tempest is gonna dance naked in market... She has that freaking high AC and every mob and their mommy in the game hit her always

[GlorkTheInvader]

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.

This solution sounds entirely too reasonable to be implemented.

[GhostNull]

That bothers us too. Would be nice to find a solution to it.

Off-topic of course but since you're around, an "image" slot similar to what LOTRO has would be a great start. And this thread if you haven't read through it yet.

[Mister_Peace]

I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels.

The thing about this ...
monsters' saves increase faster than our DCs increase. So, the ability actually scales backwards with levels.

[dennisharlien]

Depending on the exact circumstances, I'd rather use something other than Smiting. Smiting has a DC 23 Fortitude save, and only triggers on 10% of your attacks as a monk, unless you're a Ninja Spy using shortswords or using whirling steel strike. Yes, most golems have awful saves, but a Masterwork Flesh Golem or better will still make the save most of the time.

Agreed, there are far better handwarps to wear than smiting and heck I already have 1 full backpack tab of handwarps at endgame another one is just a waste

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

In fact as far as im concerned yes. going back to the pre TWF changes of straight 500 point strike I'm fine with (now all may not agree) Because we could have a reliable high damage punch that could be cycled with other abilities like Earth 4 strike, fire 4 strike, Dark strike, ToD. Still be button pressing kings but at least we know we can rely on it in all situations and not another "situational ability" that we have to spec/gear twords to use semi-reliably, AT those times. I already have enough button mashing plus gear swapping going on for ANOTHER one to worry about. Especially without programmable macro's.

There's also the flavor thing of Touch of Death being optimal against the Walking Dead and the Unliving being a bit... wrong.

Well as a long time DnD player from PnP through all the goldbox Games/bauldersgate/nwn Etc. Alot in DDO is messing with the monk flavor thing :P But where here for a fun experience and things are different in this world from other DnD products. So worrying about a "flavor thing" in killing undead/construct with ToD is going a bit overboard IMO.

Alternatively, if it's purely Shroud Portals that people are upset about - we could always make them vulnerable to negative energy. The Pale Masters would be happy about that.

This would only make the ones trying to set records happy not the general populace.

* I've got unbelievable luck with drops for my monk. I also got my Devouts the first run, when they dropped for the rogue in my party. I think I steal all of MadFloyd's luck though - he never gets anything he wants.

And this was BEGGING for a comment. I did, and I'm not joking 76 FULL runs with 2 TR's on this toon (its a running joke with friends and guildies) with so many ransacks its ridiculous before I got my set of Devouts. I saw 3 sets in those runs but only ended up with the 3rd set. So nothing personal but now "I hate you" lol J/K..... first run..... I want to kill someone now.

[BlackSteel]

Eladrin if u re still reading; what's the fort save on elite horoth or epic demon queen? Should a character specced out for a good dc expect to land touch of death or anything else reliable on the real end game bosses?

Sorry for the short format, on an iPhone

good dc being 40, great dc being 45ish. 45 is a very large investment, often costing previous fighter lives, wisdom at the expense of str, costing much needed to hit, and up to 12 ap thru a tactics line. Wf tactics is the only reason I wouldn't reroll my wf monk to half Orc.

[Coldin]

Any comment on Shintao Smite using the palm strike?

Well, assuming that Shintao gets fixed to allow off-hand attacks with unarmed, wouldn't a palm strike be a really bad change?

[Xeriphim]

you can spend 2 whole action points for a 10% heal amp and still have plenty of action points for void strike 4 . If you need more healing amp you can wear the thri keen bracers outa house D , sentinals pack . Or you can go farm HoX in sub for leviks bracers ... If either of those plus the base 10% you gain for 2 action points isn't enough heal amp . that's a player issue not a game issue .



I enjoy the light monk path more then the Dark path of Monk . Yes I'm happy shintao got a major rewrite , it honestly needed it an I am pretty sure most would agree with Shintao needing alot of love .


That one button I win ability ,( ToD) made alot of classes completly irrelevant given the self sufficency of the monk class as a whole . So ToD no longer works well on undead an constructs . Big deal , it's not like you face alot of constructs in the game as it is , and for undead ,you have disruption weapons an wraps plus greater undead bane weapons too . Having ToD not be usefull vs. Undead an constructs isn't going to make dark path monks unplayable .

If anything leave the ToD damage change of Negitive energy instead of Untyped . Just drop the fort save portion . I'm pretty sure most dark monks could live with that . If not well guessing we'll see alot of rage quits over it .

[dogpig00]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

I guess it is too complicated to split the damage type in half. In that case, I would put the damage type as untyped. It should still be able to double/triple strike. The save can stay there as is, but please do let us know the formula for save (full or half monk level?), and whether stunning +10 item will affect its DC.

[Samadhi]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

Absolutely NOT. Any attack that is going to interrupt our attack chain is FAR inferior than just throwing a save on something. I haven't entered into these discussions much simply because I don't really care one way or another about the current proposed change (although I'm still never going to use the neg. energy amplification thing). However, if you are interrupting our attack chains, that IS a significant nerf. No thanks.

[Angelus_dead]

I guess it is too complicated to split the damage type in half.

That conclusion would only make sense if they actually wanted to split the damage type.

The save can stay there as is, but please do let us know the formula for save (full or half monk level?), and whether stunning +10 item will affect its DC.

It's full monk level, and stunning items don't apply.

It could be a fine idea for the devs to allow Necromancy Focus items to apply, and also create special gear which boosts TOD explicitly.

[Scraap]

If it's preferable to the dark monk community, I can remove the save, restore it to untyped damage, and make it only able to proc once per attack, by switching it to the "palm strike" style attack animation. It would then behave like it did when the ability was first introduced. I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels. The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

Not really a member of any specific class-fan community, but strictly speaking on principle, I do feel the need to mention we cap at 3 classes (+1 racial eventually) which in theory allows for a great deal of customization, and hence re-playability, be it for emphasizing a given strength, shoring up a certain weakness, or simply bringing a few new tricks to the table that even things out. Beyond a certain point though, class-level based DCs break down into uselessness, turning a minor irritation to a pure downright pointless for a multi. Now this may very well be something you wish to encourage, but if not, and I still do hold a small hope that this is not in fact the case, could you at minimum allow the pre's or abilities to raise the relevant DC score it'sself if you find dropping the save distasteful so that, say monk12-13s have a chance at retaining relevance vs 20s?

[dogpig00]

i still think splitting the damage type with constant fixed untyped damage, plus a bonus negative energy damage which target failed fort save would be most thematically correct and will satisfy people on both side.

[rimble]

I figured that attaching a save to it was better overall though since the ability would scale with levels.

I find that a poor way to scale. It's an "all or nothing" approach.

Take a Level 9, tanked Wis, just-enough-levels-for-ToD Monk multi-class.

Then take a Level 20, moderate Wis (~26), pure Dark Monk.

In Elite/Epic content, they're both hitting for 250. That's not scaling, that's promoting Min/Max--everyone tank Wis because you'll always fail on Elite/Epic (where it matters most) anyways.

If you want a save for some reason, go ahead, but I don't think that's the proper mechanic to pursue for 'scaling'.

Of course, then we start getting back to that "stop killing multi-classes" thing, and then it gets all complicated.

The negative energy change was added for the synergy with Touch of Despair, and to better reflect that it's the opposite of Rise of the Pheonix. (Raise Dead vs. Slay Living.)

On paper that sounds like neat synergy. In practice, my fingers don't have the bandwidth, and I'd rather focus on 'sure DPS' attacks during that time, than building up this clunky Finisher and MAYBE hoping I get to add 10% to my ToD. When it's time to refresh Shadow Fade even now I take that opportunity to refresh it, hit Fists of Darkness, and then hit ToD and then Touch of Despair...but it's just a Finishing Move of convenience (even then not all that convenient really since it doesn't work on alot of stuff I'd like it to work on).

[Angelus_dead]

Then take a Level 20, moderate Wis (~26), pure Dark Monk.

In Elite/Epic content, they're both hitting for 250.

You are greatly overestimating the ability of epic monsters to pass a DC 38 saving throw.

[LeLoric]

I find that a poor way to scale. It's an "all or nothing" approach.

Take a Level 9, tanked Wis, just-enough-levels-for-ToD Monk multi-class.

Then take a Level 20, moderate Wis (~26), pure Dark Monk.

In Elite/Epic content, they're both hitting for 250. That's not scaling, that's promoting Min/Max--everyone tank Wis because you'll always fail on Elite/Epic (where it matters most) anyways.

If you want a save for some reason, go ahead, but I don't think that's the proper mechanic to pursue for 'scaling'.

Of course, then we start getting back to that "stop killing multi-classes" thing, and then it gets all complicated.



On paper that sounds like neat synergy. In practice, my fingers don't have the bandwidth, and I'd rather focus on 'sure DPS' attacks during that time, than building up this clunky Finisher and MAYBE hoping I get to add 10% to my ToD. When it's time to refresh Shadow Fade even now I take that opportunity to refresh it, hit Fists of Darkness, and then hit ToD and then Touch of Despair...but it's just a Finishing Move of convenience (even then not all that convenient really since it doesn't work on alot of stuff I'd like it to work on).

base 10 +20 monk level +8 wis modifier=38 dc.

This will hit for full 500 over 50% of the time in epic content. 26 wis is a pretty moderate amount.