Please give Half Elves elven weapon enhancement lines

[Whargoul]

Since half elves are still considered elves for negative effects, it would be reasonable that they share slightly more heritage with their elven parentage/aptitudes in the form of certain enhancement choices.

I'm suggesting to add Aerenal, Valenar, Ranged, and possibly Drow Melee/Ranged lines to Half Elves. To balance, perhaps add various Dilletante feats as additional optional prerequisites, that way Half Elven fighters would not NEED to take Dilletante: Fighter to qualify for the weapon enhancement lines.

[AylinIsAwesome]

At the current time, this would be a mistake as it would remove the tiny bonus Elves have currently with melee weapons.

Half-Elves do need to be finished, but for the most part I'm reserving judgment until they're finished.

[Alabore]

Since half elves are still considered elves for negative effects, it would be reasonable that they share slightly more heritage with their elven parentage/aptitudes in the form of certain enhancement choices.

/not sure I would sign.

Rationale: being considered elven is actually advantageous; immunity to sleep and ghoul touch, resistance to charm/domination.

Also, h-elves get human line's boosts to attack.
With elven weapon boosts they'd be above both humans and elves.
Do not dismiss human versatility boosts: they scale with char level.
A full elf would have to splash deeply for the same boosts on some builds.

[LookingForABentoBox]

For melee characters that don't care about dex that's the main reason to go elf. To give the same option to half-elves would make relves a subpar choice since players would get the same bonus without the -2 con tradeoff

[SilentSnake]

I think a nice way to make it a good and customizeable race while maintain balance could be to give them:

1. Just the first tier of all the elven weapons enhancements ( Aeranal Melee Attack/ Damage I, Valenar Melee Attack/Damage I, Elven Bow Attack/Damage I ) - with the mechanism that exclude Aeranal if Valenar is chosen and vice versa )

or

2.The possibility to choose full elven weapon enhancements only if they have previously chosen the Elven Dexterity enhancements line, which locks out full Human Versatility/Recovery enhancements lines. Vice versa if the choice is made toward Human Adaptability/Greater Adaptability, the elven weapon enhancements line will be unavailable.
Elf training vs Human training. Some Half-elf consider themself offspring of the elves, others embrace their human origin. It makes sense to me

[AylinIsAwesome]

I think a nice way to make it a good and customizeable race while maintain balance could be to give them:

1. Just the first tier of all the elven weapons enhancements ( Aeranal Melee Attack/ Damage I, Valenar Melee Attack/Damage I, Elven Bow Attack/Damage I ) - with the mechanism that exclude Aeranal if Valenar is chosen and vice versa )

Maybe.

or

2.The possibility to choose full elven weapon enhancements only if they have previously chosen the Elven Dexterity enhancements line, which locks out full Human Versatility/Recovery enhancements lines. Vice versa if the choice is made toward Human Adaptability/Greater Adaptability, the elven weapon enhancements line will be unavailable.
Elf training vs Human training. Some Half-elf consider themself offspring of the elves, others embrace their human origin. It makes sense to me

No.

This would just turn them into Elves with no -CON penalty and a bonus feat at first level.

[SilentSnake]

This would just turn them into Elves with no -CON penalty and a bonus feat at first level.

Maybe in pure combat definition they may be very well equal, but in general terms they will still lack:
- +2 Dexterity
- +2 Will saves vs Enchantments
- Free longsword, rapier, shortbow and longbow proficiency
- +1 extra bonus to Spot & Search
- Elven Keen Eyes III to IV
- Elven Perception III to IV
- Elven Arcanum I to IV
- Elf enchantments resistance I to III
- Dragonmark of Shadow

The bonus feat half-elf gets is not a real one like the Human one. It may be useful, but elves are not just a -2 con ^.^

But even if you don't like the option 2, the first one should look like a good balance for a new race ( that has to be purchased at the store ) that can be considered, for what you previously said, just an elf with +2 con and no enhancements

[AylinIsAwesome]

Maybe in pure combat definition they may be very well equal, but in general terms they will still lack:
- +2 Dexterity

Useful for DEX builds and qualifying for TWF easier, but the -CON outweighs it.

- +2 Will saves vs Enchantments

You can be immune to almost every enchantment, the exception being Dance.

- +1 extra bonus to Spot & Search

Humans can get these skills high enough with +0 to each.

- Elven Keen Eyes III to IV
- Elven Perception III to IV

Except to ease getting gear for newer players, these aren't necessary for anyone.

- Elven Arcanum I to IV

These only apply for Elven Wizards, and Elf is one of the worst choices for Wizards. The line is overpriced regardless.

- Elf enchantments resistance I to III

See above.

- Dragonmark of Shadow

The displacement is the main thing about this mark, but those can be replaced with a Shroud item.

The bonus feat half-elf gets is not a real one like the Human one. It may be useful, but elves are not just a -2 con ^.^

Some are mildly useful, and it's still a bonus, even if it's a tiny one, over regular Elves.

Also none of those benefits outweigh -2CON.

But even if you don't like the option 2, the first one should look like a good balance for a new race that can be considered, for what you previously said, just an elf with +2 con and no enhancements

Option 1 would be better, but it might not even be needed depending on what the Half-Elf specific lines end up being.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Half-elves should at least get the old line of weapon enhancement before they added in the scimmy/falchion line.

I mean they are part elf after all, I would think they would retain some of their inherent abilities with those weapons...ESPECIALLY longbows and shortbows.

[Alabore]

I mean they are part elf after all, I would think they would retain some of their inherent abilities with those weapons...ESPECIALLY longbows and shortbows.[/COLOR]

To be fair, I can't recall them getting any weapon-related bonus, in pnp, even in older editions.

Dragonlance gave them +2 dex to overcome a negative modifier to reactions.
But that's about it.

Can anybody provide more info?

[TheDearLeader]

Also, they do not gain racial proficiency with Longswords and Longbows. They'd have to give up their Dilettante feat to make that happen.

[TheDearLeader]

To be fair, I can't recall them getting any weapon-related bonus, in pnp, even in older editions.

Dragonlance gave them +2 dex to overcome a negative modifier to reactions.
But that's about it.

Can anybody provide more info?

Any weapon-related damage bonuses they would get would be from Enhancements. DDO's pretty much the only D&D ruleset I know of that does those, so you wouldn't see them elsewhere.

[Alabore]

Any weapon-related damage bonuses they would get would be from Enhancements. DDO's pretty much the only D&D ruleset I know of that does those, so you wouldn't see them elsewhere.

You actually provided the answer I was looking for.
Only true elves ever got proficiency for swords/bow, so a full weapon enh line wouldn't fit much here.

Maybe only the initial tiers.
But they already get elven dex AND human versatility.

...

From what I could see, h-elves felt just about right.
H-orc actually played rougher for me.

[vVAnjilaVv]

To be fair, I can't recall them getting any weapon-related bonus, in pnp, even in older editions.

Dragonlance gave them +2 dex to overcome a negative modifier to reactions.
But that's about it.

Can anybody provide more info?

Hmmm...ok I wasn't aware of this......well, even so they will still be a killer race....with everything else they are getting I can't see a +2 to-hit and damage making or breaking them.

[Alabore]

well, even so they will still be a killer race....with everything else they are getting I can't see a +2 to-hit and damage making or breaking them.

I must say, they felt just about right.
Familiar enough, yet sufficiently original to allow for different building patterns.

...

I don't like the way they look.
But when playing you tend to zoom out a bit anyway, so it didn't prove too distracting.

[Whargoul]

Thanks all. I respect all the comments offered here so far, and have begun to agree with many of them.

You guys are probably right, giving the full elven weapon enhancement lines would give fewer reasons for playing an actual elf. Still though, half elves feel unfinished, and it would be nice to get something combat enhancement-wise (more than just the human versatility clicks, which I personally find annoying).

Maybe with the Dilletante: Fighter, they would be able to pick up certain weapon enhancements similar to fighter specialization or kensei mastery lines but don't stack with the actual fighter/kensei enhancements (no more than +2 attack/damage). This limits the enhancement lines to a single specified weapon, and is more fighter themed and less race themed.

If it ends up being just the martial melee proficiencies, then no big deal and also not interesting enough to draw me in. Oh well. It must be challenging for devs to make something interesting and exciting enough to play but not be overpowered.

[Alabore]

Still though, half elves feel unfinished, and it would be nice to get something combat enhancement-wise (more than just the human versatility clicks, which I personally find annoying).

I used to dislike clicky boosts too.
Until I managed to create some custom key-binding, so I could easily activate them in the thick of battle.
I've been loving them ever since.
A well timed boost can can really give you the edge.

And makes some trickier multis, such as rog/ftr, behave more smoothly, since boosts scale with char level.

Maybe with the Dilletante: Fighter

I would politely point out the other Dilettante feats give you some nice perks too.
They might feel unfinished because people only see raw numbers and first tier, not party interaction.

Take Cleric Dilettante: it lets you use cleric wands.
Nothing to write home about.
Your typical exploiter can already use healing wands.
But what about lesser restoration? That is cleric only.
A half elf could whip out a wand of lesser restoration, restore up the half orc barbarian from exhaustion, without resorting to UMD.

Again, it is not about raw power.
It is about details, and making small things go smoother.
I tend to run supporter chars; I don't try and squeeze the very extra dps out.
Most players do that anyway.
I try to bring some extra skills and perks so the party as a whole can survive and maybe win the day.
I think half elf is about that.

[Valakai]

I have slowly been warming up to this race and when they add some enhancements to the dilettante feats it compares quite nicely with both elves and humans. Its not OP like half orc or WF which seem to be the power races atm but it does have nice flexibility and while the current dilettante feats are somewhat useful they have potential to become more powerful in the future.

Has anyone fully tested the dragonmarks btw? Was wondering how good the 3rd one was max+emp?

[AylinIsAwesome]

A half elf could whip out a wand of lesser restoration, restore up the half orc barbarian from exhaustion, without resorting to UMD.

I just want to point out that pots of Lesser Restoration are super cheap, and if anyone (especially a Barbarian) can't be bothered to carry them then I can't be bothered to spend my resources curing their exhaustion.

[noinfo]

Since half elves are still considered elves for negative effects, it would be reasonable that they share slightly more heritage with their elven parentage/aptitudes in the form of certain enhancement choices.

I'm suggesting to add Aerenal, Valenar, Ranged, and possibly Drow Melee/Ranged lines to Half Elves. To balance, perhaps add various Dilletante feats as additional optional prerequisites, that way Half Elven fighters would not NEED to take Dilletante: Fighter to qualify for the weapon enhancement lines.

As long as they locked out some of the human ones as a result I don't have a problem. The other solution is to only allow the first tier.